Prime Tyson vs Prime Frazier

[billeau2]

Yes Joe wouldn't care about Mike's KO% against heavier boxers with much better records on average than the opponents Joe faced. He would not care about Tyson exceeding him many times fold in every relevant boxing department or his blood thirsty desire to destroy.

And that's why he'll be destroyed in seconds.

However big Joe's heart was. It was not big enough to stand up to Tyson!

I'm usually not expressing such kindness for Tyson.

Then again I'm not usually having to defend Tyson against such piss weak opposition either!

And as for mentioning Ali (Laced Up now) on a Frazier thread.. That's because they are both linked so closely. Without Ali, Frazier is a bum, without Frazier, Ali is reduced majorly. There mythologies were developed together.

Your unsupported statements and conjecture simply show what an idiot you are son. If you actually look at the fights these guys had there is some good information but you would rather assume and castigate fighters who most reasonable people know to be very skilled.

You can see what happens to Tyson when he cannot work the way he wants. and I say this as a fan of Tyson BTW. Frazier was better than Razor
Ruddock and we can see how Hollyfield achieved his victories. This tells us a lot about how a prime Frazier would do.

Likewise we can see how Frazier fell against Foreman. Mosgt people analyzing this scenerio would see that Georges power BUT mnore important: his REACH and strategy of pushing Joe into his kill zone made the difference.

[Elroy1]

Your unsupported statements and conjecture simply show what an idiot you are son. If you actually look at the fights these guys had there is some good information but you would rather assume and castigate fighters who most reasonable people know to be very skilled.

You can see what happens to Tyson when he cannot work the way he wants. and I say this as a fan of Tyson BTW. Frazier was better than Razor
Ruddock and we can see how Hollyfield achieved his victories. This tells us a lot about how a prime Frazier would do.

Likewise we can see how Frazier fell against Foreman. Mosgt people analyzing this scenerio would see that Georges power BUT mnore important: his REACH and strategy of pushing Joe into his kill zone made the difference.

Wrong 3 times over, as usual.

My arguments as always are supported.

On paper, Tyson's fight record exceeds Frazier's by so far it isn't competitive.

Because he KO'ed the heavier opponents (by about 20lbs on average)
Because he KO'ed his opponents several times faster than Frazier on average.
Because he faced, beat and KO'ed opponents who had much better records than the opponents Frazier did on average.
And who's opponents had better records than those of Fraziers and so on.

On Tyson when he cannot work, I seen only taller boxers than Tyson who could match his strength, tie Tyson up inside until they split. In every case Tyson won a wide UD and chin checked them to the max all but on 2 occasions (Holyfield) and Buster. Lennox did not win this way, they simply outboxed him from the outside. Frazier was not considerable taller (or fast enough to capitalise on it) and much weaker than Tyson, rendering that argument worthless.

Ruddock was so much better than Frazier it's ridiculous to compare. You might say that is a baseless statement. Well I can give you more concrete facts if you like, you know I could, but I want to point out that you made the blanket statement that Frazer was better than Ruddock with no evidence yourself!

Yes I see George's strategy, but that only works when your opponent is weak (like Joe) chinny (like Joe) slow and unco (like Joe), not powerful (like Joe).

When George met a guy his own strength like Lyle, who was also very lumbersome I will add, suddenly, he wasn't the thrashing machine and was knocked down himself repeatedly.

Now imagine what Tyson, lightening fast, accurate, timed, perfect technique, powerful, defensive/aggressive and furius could do INSTEAD of Foreman to Frazier. Any RANGE advantage Foreman had is nothing compared to how quickly and savagely Tyson could close a gap and deliver.

The lumbering Froeman swatting out Frazier is the ultimate proof of how quickly devastated he'd be against Tyson, not vice verse.

All you have to do is WATCH that fight! Foreman vs Frazier is one of the most pathetic things I ever saw!

[Elroy1]

It isjust prior to the Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson first fight...a thread asks who would win. Everybody says, "Mike will kill Holyfield" so why doesn't Mike win this fight? I believe there is a simple reason for this: Mike was pushed back on his heels. Most fighters could, or would not push Mike backwards. Even Buster Douglas didn't really push Mike back and got knocked down for it when Mike was able to muscle in an uppercut.

Frazier's attack could conceviably push Mike backwards. If Frazier can do this with his great chin and fitness he could be a probem for Tyson. Tyson would get taken into deep water and drowned because like Hollyfield Frazier was relentless on the attack.

on the other hand if Mike gets to Frazier early and is not pushed back on his heels I think Mike wins in Forman like fashion. Joe could not get George back and George could push Frazier back and use his reach. Tyson has Foreman's strength but not his reach and that is what makes this match intriguing.

Tyson did show a propensity to take on guys who were volume punchers like Mike Spinks, but Frazier as a bona fide heavyweight probably could not be shut down and pushed backwards just on physical strength.

This fight is a toss up depending on who can get balance and position and WHEN they can get it. If Tyson gets it first he has the advantage, if Frazier can establish it some time...he gets the advantage. Want more proof? watch Mike start to tire against Razor Ruddock. Frazier might well get knocked down like Razor but unlike Ruddock Frazier would throw a lot more leather and I do not see Tyson lasting in this scenerio because Mike almost lost those fights against Razor late and all Razor did was lean and occasionaly throw a shot.

Frazier was a grossly out of shape CW boxer. He was not a real HW and he was not athletic most of the time at all and never as athletic as Tyson. Tyson is an elite athlete and a natural HW mesomorph.

Frazier was an extremely physically weak boxer, Tyson was an extremely strong boxer. Comparing the joke of Frazier physically to Evander Holyfield roided to the gills is ridiculous! Tyson could literally throw Frazier around the ring like a rag doll!

Frazier was a glass jaw.

Frazier was a featherfist.

All facts.

Your arguments are all based on falsities and are totally worthless as usual!

Why bother?

Did you ever see Frazier in Super Stars?

[abdelfadeel]

Yes Joe wouldn't care about Mike's KO% against heavier boxers with much better records on average than the opponents Joe faced. He would not care about Tyson exceeding him many times fold in every relevant boxing department or his blood thirsty desire to destroy.

And that's why he'll be destroyed in seconds.

However big Joe's heart was. It was not big enough to stand up to Tyson!

I'm usually not expressing such kindness for Tyson.

Then again I'm not usually having to defend Tyson against such piss weak opposition either!

And as for mentioning Ali (Laced Up now) on a Frazier thread.. That's because they are both linked so closely. Without Ali, Frazier is a bum, without Frazier, Ali is reduced majorly. There mythologies were developed together.

Ruddock would stand up to Tyson but Frazier wouldn't?

[abdelfadeel]

Your post was not worth a drop of piss in the outback mate.

Frazier was not 1/50th the boxer that Holyfield was.

There is good argument that a younger Tyson would have done better against the roided Holyfield, who at a more modest 205 (the original weight he'd of faced Tyson at before jail) would doubtfully have won.

And who were these other "real" boxers who KHTFO?

There were only 3 others...

Danny Williams, who Tyson won nearly every round against before he gassed and got caught by big punches from a 250+ lb guy

LEnnox Lewis, possibly the greatest HW of all time.

And Buster Douglas. You can point to Buster early in his career when Tyson was supposedly prime, BUT, Tyson whooped all the other top boxers of his era then who were ranked higher than Douglas and BEAT Douglas. So it lends EXTREME credence to the fact that Tyson was off, and Buster was right on!

In fact, I'll not defend Tyson in the Douglas fight. I'll credit Buster, he was a big, tall strong guy who boxed very well that night and kind of reminded me a bit of an on form Rid**** Bowe!

As for the steady diet of bums Tyson beat, from the moment Tyson won the title, he was NOT fighting bums. He fought good opposition until he went to jail. When he came back, he fought some more bums and THEN he fought again, TOP competition. Tyson was ALWAYS the money.

This guy flogged out Golota and Botha and Ruddock and Bruno and countless other rated boxers of the day.

Could you imagine a guy like Frazier trying to fight someone like Golota? Or Bruno?

Frazier doesn't even play in the same league as these guys and he certainly doesn't play in the same league as friggin Tyson!

It's an insult!

Frazier would have a field day with Golota and Bruno. Sorry iif you can't handle it.

[LacedUp]

So...

Are you saying Liston DIDN'T take a dive???

For the record??

Well, I've read certain things from the people in Liston's corner and also what Liston told the press after the fight and in the dressing room.

I know you haven't read it, so there's no point in discussing it.

[LacedUp]

Nice to see you put so much thought into each comment, it clearly displays how much I've got under your skin...

News flash its a boxing forum!



Some people take things WAY too seriously.

Under my skin? I don't know which world you live in son, but it's not this one.

Yeah, so seriously that they'd come on a boxing forum with the sole purpose of making up lies about Muhammad Ali and call everyone he faced a bum.

What a sad life.

[Elroy1]

Ruddock would stand up to Tyson but Frazier wouldn't?

Ruddock is a pressure fighter as well, like Frazier, but Ruddock also has some actual boxing skill to back it up too. More the point, Ruddock is immensely powerful, able to do serious damage with his punches, unlike Joe, who's power was mainly dangerous against the sub 200 fighters whom Ruddock wasn't allowed to knock out. He is also extremely strongly built, at 6'3" and 240lbs.

Yeah, I think Razor Ruddock is just a little bit better equipped to stand up to Mike Tyson than friggin Frazier is!

Who is to say Razor didn't have heart like Joe's? How can you measure it? You can't! For me it's OBVIOUS Ruddock had ATLEAST as good a heart as Joe because he face more and much more dangerous opponents.

Point is, Joe's heart will not allow him to survive.

[Elroy1]

Frazier would have a field day with Golota and Bruno. Sorry iif you can't handle it.

yeah, right, sure.

http://suffolkjournal.net/wp-content...oe-Frazier.jpg

Joe Frazier, little chubby boxer who can barely box with no chin and no power.

http://jeffsboxing.tripod.com/golota.jpg

Andrew Golota, 6'4" 240lb powerhouse with exceptional boxing skills, gave a hiding 2ce to Rid**** Bowe!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image..._b_203_270.jpg

Bruno. Nothing special in the skills department, although still better than Frazir. But LOOK at him! Standing 6'5 and very heavily build, as if Joe could even fight him!

[Elroy1]

Well, I've read certain things from the people in Liston's corner and also what Liston told the press after the fight and in the dressing room.

I know you haven't read it, so there's no point in discussing it.

Oh really?

What information have you become privy to about the Liston dive that casts some further doubt on it.

I seen the PUNCH, if you can call it that, that supposedly put Liston down for the count.

Now either Liston SUDDENLY became weaker than an 80 year old grandmother or he dived. It can't be both ways. Nothing anyone says can make a difference, it's captured on film.