Prime Tyson vs Prime Frazier

[LacedUp]

Laced Up...

Ok so Muhammad did some charitable things for ppl. Ok. I don't want to knock him for any of that.

But you must understand that he did many terrible things too. He did oppress/beat his women. He was involved in kidnappings of the family of a certain opponent. He was involved in a fundamentalist religious group connected with terrorism, he bad mouthed in very unsavoury fashion fighters before the fight (like Frazier) and unnecessarily tortured opponents who were so weak they should not have even shared the same ring with him (like Patterson). And he was an extreme racist, whatever his motives!

So he is a 2 headed dragon you might say.

What bothers me the most is that your saying he did more than any sportsman ever for the human race. Preposterous!

Most sportsmen are charitable in many ways, maybe it's because Muhammad was such a bigot that you always heard about it.

What about the in-ring niceties of Mike Tyson, when he always helped his fallen opponent up to their feet. What about Tyson's nice comments about beaten boxers, or even boxers like Lewis who defeated him, after the fight?

And what about out of ring greatness like Vitali Klitschko of all people, who lead their entire country and millions of people through civil war, right in the middle of violent riots, all in the pursuit of peace and a stand against oppression.

Are you telling me that Muhammad Ali's acts of charity, despite all his negative qualities are more honourable for the human race than what this man has done/is doing for it?

Come on man.. You are searching with that statement!

Bring me facts that Ali beat his women. Facts. Bring them. It's the first I've heard of it.

The nation of Islam was not a ********* group You need education. They were a black movement trying to get black people some self respect in an era of segregation, and they preached peace. Not war.

He did terrorize Frazier, that's true. Amongst others. He was clowning, and didn't realize how badly it hurt Frazier's family. According to his daughter he cried when he found out. Him and Joe also reconciled before Frazier passed away according to Marvin Frazier.

Who's family did he kidnap?

You're so off the truth, it's crazy. I don't know where you get this stuff from.

He was not an extremist racist, he was proud of being black. How can a racist have guys like Dundee, Ferdie Pacheco, Kilroy et al around 24/7 being a racist? He didn't hate white people , he hated what a lot of white people stood for, which was surpression. Something you and I could never understand. He enlightened a whole world of black people that their colour was beautiful, that they were not inferior to white people. If you wish to draw negatives from that, fine, be my guest.

It's not just 'charity', that was just a pinch of all the things he did. What about the war he turned down. A black man standing up to a surpression goverment who had legal segregation in many states, saying he refuse to go. Black people were being killed at a rate of 5:1 in the late 60s in vietnam. Why is that? I think people had a right to know. And he told them. And was ready to go to prison for it, and was close to it.

Instead he enlightened not only black america, but the whole world that the war was wrong. Movements were started on his very actions - to limit this man as a boxer is an insult. He was the one guy telling a nation that the war was wrong - suddenly, that nation realized he was right.

I have nothing bad to say about what Vitali Klitschko is doing, I think it's great and his motives are great. I'm not an expert on the subject, so I can't really say much. But I think the two things are very different.

[Easy Work.]

Bring me facts that Ali beat his women. Facts. Bring them. It's the first I've heard of it.

The nation of Islam was not a ********* group You need education. They were a black movement trying to get black people some self respect in an era of segregation, and they preached peace. Not war.

He did terrorize Frazier, that's true. Amongst others. He was clowning, and didn't realize how badly it hurt Frazier's family. According to his daughter he cried when he found out. Him and Joe also reconciled before Frazier passed away according to Marvin Frazier.

Who's family did he kidnap?

You're so off the truth, it's crazy. I don't know where you get this stuff from.

He was not an extremist racist, he was proud of being black. How can a racist have guys like Dundee, Ferdie Pacheco, Kilroy et al around 24/7 being a racist? He didn't hate white people , he hated what a lot of white people stood for, which was surpression. Something you and I could never understand. He enlightened a whole world of black people that their colour was beautiful, that they were not inferior to white people. If you wish to draw negatives from that, fine, be my guest.

It's not just 'charity', that was just a pinch of all the things he did. What about the war he turned down. A black man standing up to a surpression goverment who had legal segregation in many states, saying he refuse to go. Black people were being killed at a rate of 5:1 in the late 60s in vietnam. Why is that? I think people had a right to know. And he told them. And was ready to go to prison for it, and was close to it.

Instead he enlightened not only black america, but the whole world that the war was wrong. Movements were started on his very actions - to limit this man as a boxer is an insult. He was the one guy telling a nation that the war was wrong - suddenly, that nation realized he was right.

I have nothing bad to say about what Vitali Klitschko is doing, I think it's great and his motives are great. I'm not an expert on the subject, so I can't really say much. But I think the two things are very different.

Damn breh you really held it down and layed out some facts i was about to tel this ignorant dude saying all this nonsense about ali .....dont even waste time on him he obviously has no idea what he is talking about

[Easy Work.]

Yes, I have Ali 0-3 against Norton and even stetching Ali as much kindness as possible you can only gift him 1 fight at most.

I have Shaver beating Ali.

And sure, he got Foreman, his best victory but I give almost as much credit to Foreman for losing that fight through ******ity as I do Ali for winning it. With that, the ropes, the poison debacle, the holding in the camp unable to train etc etc, it was farcical to say the least. And no rematch? Come on

The main reason I baulk so strongly is having Ali (and by extension Frazier) winning all fantasy match ups vs modern (yes MODERN) boxers on no substantial grounds, well I find that an insult. A massive insult to every boxer that came after.

lol how is ali 0-3 vs norton are you ******ed? lmao you really are a hater trying to discredit a great....lol thats how a hater says things, he hates a fighter so bad that he starts to say he lost fights that he won, charlie zelenoff is that you?

[LacedUp]

lol how is ali 0-3 vs norton are you ******ed? lmao you really are a hater trying to discredit a great....lol thats how a hater says things, he hates a fighter so bad that he starts to say he lost fights that he won, charlie zelenoff is that you?

Well you know if a man has to resort to lying about Ali being a wife beater and a *********, he's a hater.

[Elroy1]

Honestly I've book marked your post and I'll get back to it with some facts because I have to go to work.

But let me leave you with something quick..

You gotta be kidding implying that Muhammad Ali was basically the reason why the war ended, as if his speeches and refusal to go were the driving force behind America withdrawing. The war was unpopular ACROSS America, even among the white community, all citizens were revolted. That and the fact they got there asses kicked by the reds.

I always though Ali was PERSECUTED for not going to war not just by the government but by many citizens. Others were not allowed to dodge the draft and plenty of others would have gone to jail on principle too but since Ali was famous he is held to greatness for this? Come on!

I actually AGREE with what he stood for here, don't get me wrong. But claiming he was instrumental in stopping that war is outrageous and certainly false!

The guy who's family was kidnapped was Liston's.

I have personally heard Ali trashing white ppl in many interviews so I can't understand why you would argue here.

You make it sound like the 1860's not the 1960's!

Everybody knows he was racist, wth?

I'll get back to you later.

[Easy Work.]

Muhammad Ali was one of the most disgraceful figures in the sport of boxing what the hell are you tripping on!

The guy actually changed his name from Cassius Clay (named after a peaceful and respectful early American) to Muhammad Ali (named after a tyraniccal slaver, murderer and abuser of women).

He has been retrospectively diagnosed as a psychopath. He was a racist extremist, woman beater and oppressor and extremely rude person with a superiority complex. And he treated beaten fighters and opponents like crap

THAT'S what you choose to support! By comparison, Mike was a really great guy in every way!

Epic fail that post!

Lol you say mike was a great man and ali wasnt...what is up with you... mike self admits that he was strung out on drugs and not a good guy when he was young lmao....

Ali put on an act in front of media it was his way of selling his personality and becoming controversial. hes a very different guy around his family and private life except for the fact he cheated on his wives.....he got into ppls heads and became the villian to his opponents and i think he got in youre head too lmao

[LacedUp]

Honestly I've book marked your post and I'll get back to it with some facts because I have to go to work.

But let me leave you with something quick..

You gotta be kidding implying that Muhammad Ali was basically the reason why the war ended, as if his speeches and refusal to go were the driving force behind America withdrawing. The war was unpopular ACROSS America, even among the white community, all citizens were revolted. That and the fact they got there asses kicked by the reds.

I always though Ali was PERSECUTED for not going to war not just by the government but by many citizens. Others were not allowed to dodge the draft and plenty of others would have gone to jail on principle too but since Ali was famous he is held to greatness for this? Come on!

I actually AGREE with what he stood for here, don't get me wrong. But claiming he was instrumental in stopping that war is outrageous and certainly false!

The guy who's family was kidnapped was Liston's.

I have personally heard Ali trashing white ppl in many interviews so I can't understand why you would argue here.

You make it sound like the 1860's not the 1960's!

Everybody knows he was racist, wth?

I'll get back to you later.

I expect hard evidence that he's beaten his wife. Because, incidentally, I have read books and numerous articles and take-outs from all of his 4 wives who all claim he was the softest, best guy they ever knew and all of them still love him. I know you made that one up, so I'll hold you to it.

That's not what I'm saying, but it was a strong part of the movement behind it. And no, you're wrong. The Vietnam war did not have the same amount of opposition in the mid 60s when it started as it did in the late 60s. If you're oblivious to Ali's involvement in the realization by a lot of people that something wrong was happening, then that's your prerogative. However, one cannot deny that his refusal let to a lot of zooming in on what was actually happening, and it led to criticism of Johnson's and Nixon's regime. You also have to understand that Ali was by this time the most famous human being alive. Of any person in the world.

Once again, the persecution is also incorrect. He was of course hated by many of the white people, why wouldn't he be? They thought if he's the baddest man on the planet, why wouldn't he go to war to fight for his country? Obviously they weren't educated enough to predict the future, and his stance was "why should I go and fight a white man's war when my own people are being surpressed in this very country and you don't care about it?" Legitimate reason, wouldn't you say?

There were a few "slackers" or draft dodgers who all got through because of their contentious opposing or whatever it was called, the same reason Ali filed for his refusal. These other 2-3 guys were all acquitted, there's no doubt some racism was involved with his being persecuted by the state and their reason was that Ali had claimed he would only go to war if Allah called him upon a holy war himself - obviously completely ridiculous.

In Ali's exile Americans were beginning to learn about what happened in Vietnam, and in the meantime the popularity of Ali grew beyond belief because he was a prophet. He knew it before they did.

He wasn't a racist, but he was a little brainwashed in terms of calling white people the devil etc. That was what he was being told by Elijah, Herbert and Wallace Muhammad. But once again, even if he was racist, which he clearly wasn't at his heart, why wouldn't he be allowed to be angry with the people who had told him all of his life that he was a 2nd class citizen?

Mate, don't try and downplay the segregation of the 40s, 50s and 60s. I lived in Mississippi for two years in Uni and learned all about Emmett Till, James Meredith, the freedom writers, KKK, lyncing etc. It was happening in that time! In fact, I met one of the freedom writers in 2011 myself. I also met a black mississipian who'd been jailed for demonstrating against segregation and I have his book signed to my own name.

Also, with regards to Sonny Liston, I have read about those rumours. Surely, one cannot hold Muhammad Ali responsible for what someone else did. No one is claiming Ali himself did anything, there's factors to put into place with that as well - the recent excile from the NOI of Malcom X etc.

[LacedUp]

I want my facts Elroy!

[Weltschmerz]

Mate, don't try and downplay the segregation of the 40s, 50s and 60s. I lived in Mississippi for two years in Uni and learned all about Emmett Till, James Meredith, the freedom writers, KKK, lyncing etc. It was happening in that time! In fact, I met one of the freedom writers in 2011 myself. I also met a black mississipian who'd been jailed for demonstrating against segregation and I have his book signed to my own name.

How old are you? From your pictures you look like a kid. Not to interrupt your debate with roy but this sounds a bit dubious to me.

[LacedUp]

How old are you? From your pictures you look like a kid. Not to interrupt your debate with roy but this sounds a bit dubious to me.

I went to Ole Miss when I was in uni. Happy to provide picture evidence if you doubt it.