Why is Joe Louis Rated so Highly?

[Weltschmerz]

joe louis can't knock out a fighter who was stopped by lamon brewster?


why?


i've already proven that the answer isn't "size."

Louis was nearly stopped by a 175 lbs Billy Conn, outboxed too. We don't even need to start mentioning Ezzard Charles.

[soul_survivor]

I think the thread has gone a bit off kelter, I never intended it to be a Louis bashing thread and to most people's credit, they have given some good reasons for Louis' status, yet nothing convincing. Were his opponents better than what ALi or Holyfield or Foreman faced? Did he have better attributes? In terms of P4P is he greater than Leonard, Duran and co.?

Let's keep it focused on that. I'm a Wlad fan, have been for years but no way could he rank higher than Louis...would he beat him h2h? Possibly, his punch definitely eclipses Louis' chin but then again, that works both way lol. Wlad's size advantage would be huge and it would undoubtedly play a part, for anyone who thinks it wouldn't, well they don't fully understand this brutal sport.

[New England]

I think the thread has gone a bit off kelter, I never intended it to be a Louis bashing thread and to most people's credit, they have given some good reasons for Louis' status, yet nothing convincing. Were his opponents better than what ALi or Holyfield or Foreman faced? Did he have better attributes? In terms of P4P is he greater than Leonard, Duran and co.?

Let's keep it focused on that. I'm a Wlad fan, have been for years but no way could he rank higher than Louis...would he beat him h2h? Possibly, his punch definitely eclipses Louis' chin but then again, that works both way lol. Wlad's size advantage would be huge and it would undoubtedly play a part, for anyone who thinks it wouldn't, well they don't fully understand this brutal sport.

did it keep him from getting stopped against brewster?


louis and brewster are nearly identical in size. if brewster trained like louis, he'd be 6'2", 77 inches of reach, and probably 215 lbs. louis had a 76 inch reach, was 200-215 at his peak, and was himself 6'2"


size "playing a part," and size being the reason he beats one of the best HW of all time are different things.

anybody who picks wladimir over louis simply on the basis of size hasn't watched enough louis, and doesn't know much about the human body in respect to the size of wladimir's opponents.

[LacedUp]

did it keep him from getting stopped against brewster?


louis and brewster are nearly identical in size. if brewster trained like louis, he'd be 6'2", 77 inches of reach, and probably 215 lbs. louis had a 76 inch reach, was 200-215 at his peak, and was himself 6'2"


size "playing a part," and size being the reason he beats one of the best HW of all time are different things.

anybody who picks wladimir over louis simply on the basis of size hasn't watched enough louis, and doesn't know much about the human body in respect to the size of wladimir's opponents.

We can conclude that Weltschmerz's knowledge about boxing is as big as my interest in Anorak's love life.

[soul_survivor]

did it keep him from getting stopped against brewster?


louis and brewster are nearly identical in size. if brewster trained like louis, he'd be 6'2", 77 inches of reach, and probably 215 lbs. louis had a 76 inch reach, was 200-215 at his peak, and was himself 6'2"


size "playing a part," and size being the reason he beats one of the best HW of all time are different things.

anybody who picks wladimir over louis simply on the basis of size hasn't watched enough louis, and doesn't know much about the human body in respect to the size of wladimir's opponents.

I didn't say size would be a reason or the only reason but it would play a massive part. You can bring up Wlad's losses there is no reason why they shouldn't but that was a different version of Wlad. He was far more active and far more aggressive, the version we have seen over almost the last decade is a different beast all together.

He is far more calculated, his defense and specifically his defense has improved a hell of a lot, he knows how to fight on the back foot too or at the very least disrupt the other guys offense. He could easily tie Louis up, put pressure on his back and neck and legs. Line him up for his right hand, detonate it on a chin which crumbled at the hands of Schemling. Max said he saw Louis carried his left hand very low and landed his own right. Louis improved too since that night but, when he got overly confident and aggressive, he would drop that left and ****, wide open for Wlad's bigger, far more powerful right.

Having said that, Louis would be a far more educated fighter than anyone Wlad ever fought, he hit hard too and could get on the inside if he wished too. He would hit Wlad and maybe hit him often. Could he get the KO? Wlad's chin says 70% yes but if Wlad could control the distance, if he could push that jab out into Louis' face, tie him up on the inside, I find it difficult to see Louis winning a decision.

[VG_Addict]

Weltz and Elroy are here.

Tell me again how Povetkin and Byrd would be undefeated in past eras.

[Elroy1]

I think the thread has gone a bit off kelter, I never intended it to be a Louis bashing thread and to most people's credit, they have given some good reasons for Louis' status, yet nothing convincing. Were his opponents better than what ALi or Holyfield or Foreman faced? Did he have better attributes? In terms of P4P is he greater than Leonard, Duran and co.?

Let's keep it focused on that. I'm a Wlad fan, have been for years but no way could he rank higher than Louis...would he beat him h2h? Possibly, his punch definitely eclipses Louis' chin but then again, that works both way lol. Wlad's size advantage would be huge and it would undoubtedly play a part, for anyone who thinks it wouldn't, well they don't fully understand this brutal sport.

Agreed, and you're right, to keep it on track...

Louis's opponents were of lower calibre and skill than Foreman, Ali and Holyfield's opponents. This is evidenced by the stats of the boxers, the records, analysis of their opponents and the video of their fights.

Overall he might have been a better boxer than Ali who was fundamentally fairly poor. He definitely was a better technical boxer than Foreman who for the first part of his career could barely box. Of course Ali would likely batter Louis into submission due to his size and speed (and later strength) and Foreman would knock him out in the 1st round due to insurmountable strength and power. Of course Holyfield is a completely superior boxer in everyway than Louis.

Lb for lb? No fighter who fought exclusively at HW (unlimited) can ever assume lb for lb status at all. The closest example might have been Mike Tyson considering he was a smaller HW fighting larger ones mostly. Marciano stat wise except he never faced a decent big opponent. Other than that, only former limit division fighters who move up to HW have the necessary skills to be considered lb for lb like Holyfield and Haye etc. Guys like LEnnox or Ali for example who rely on their size advantages as part of their style cannot translate lb for lb.

Joe Louis is a particularly silly example for anybody to suggest he was a lb for lb great fighter since, despite some classic fights against oafs where he was outsized, mostly he outsized nearly all of his opponents. More specifically, he outsized all of his skilled opponents.

[New England]

I didn't say size would be a reason or the only reason but it would play a massive part. You can bring up Wlad's losses there is no reason why they shouldn't but that was a different version of Wlad. He was far more active and far more aggressive, the version we have seen over almost the last decade is a different beast all together.

He is far more calculated, his defense and specifically his defense has improved a hell of a lot, he knows how to fight on the back foot too or at the very least disrupt the other guys offense. He could easily tie Louis up, put pressure on his back and neck and legs. Line him up for his right hand, detonate it on a chin which crumbled at the hands of Schemling. Max said he saw Louis carried his left hand very low and landed his own right. Louis improved too since that night but, when he got overly confident and aggressive, he would drop that left and ****, wide open for Wlad's bigger, far more powerful right.

Having said that, Louis would be a far more educated fighter than anyone Wlad ever fought, he hit hard too and could get on the inside if he wished too. He would hit Wlad and maybe hit him often. Could he get the KO? Wlad's chin says 70% yes but if Wlad could control the distance, if he could push that jab out into Louis' face, tie him up on the inside, I find it difficult to see Louis winning a decision.

so he's going to do exactly what louis wants him to do, which is to be deliberate and allow louis time to study him, and win? and a longer reach wins the day? carnera had much longer reach than louis. he actually had a markedly longer reach than wladimir.


you overrate wladimir horribly. in the same breath, your underrating of joe louis, one of the best HW ever, and a guy regularly regarded as the best offensive fighter ever at the weight, is criminal. it's clearly an argument based on the size, which we have determined means nothing on its own, based on our comparisons of louis and brewster.

wladimir lost to brewster because he fought the wrong fight by choice? the bombs he couldn't take [which are lightyears below louis' to anybody with a pair of eyes,] had nothing to do with it? did his gassing out really have nothing to do with brewster being a relatively dynamic offensive fighter with good power?


what wladimir has done recently is clinch. it's virtually illegal. louis would find space for the right hand, and it would be over. he was always good at keeping his hands free, even against men approaching the size of wladimir.

wladimir's protecting a bad chin. that's why he fights that way. that's why he clinches. that's why you pick him to lose to virtually all of the great HW in fantasy fights, and why he lost to less than great HW in the real world.



at least you make actual arguments. i respect that. you're wrong, but i respect that you make actual arguments. weltz, on the other hand, does not.

[Elroy1]

did it keep him from getting stopped against brewster?


louis and brewster are nearly identical in size. if brewster trained like louis, he'd be 6'2", 77 inches of reach, and probably 215 lbs. louis had a 76 inch reach, was 200-215 at his peak, and was himself 6'2"


size "playing a part," and size being the reason he beats one of the best HW of all time are different things.

anybody who picks wladimir over louis simply on the basis of size hasn't watched enough louis, and doesn't know much about the human body in respect to the size of wladimir's opponents.

Man, you just exposed yourself as a fool.

Brewster was 226lbs up to even larger and a hulking power house at that weight with a very heavy bone structure.

For anybody reading what you wrote and then doing a quick check they could see immediately that one of these guys (Brewster) is someone you would not want to bump into in a dark alley and who you might find working security on a door somewhere.

The other guy (Louis) looks by comparison like a school boy who has had a few seasons of sports day under his belt but really could use a few sandwiches.

Reality is is that even comparing Louis to Brewster in h2h terms is laughable! There's no way Louis could even fight properly this calibre of opponent.

[VG_Addict]

Agreed, and you're right, to keep it on track...

Louis's opponents were of lower calibre and skill than Foreman, Ali and Holyfield's opponents. This is evidenced by the stats of the boxers, the records, analysis of their opponents and the video of their fights.

Overall he might have been a better boxer than Ali who was fundamentally fairly poor. He definitely was a better technical boxer than Foreman who for the first part of his career could barely box. Of course Ali would likely batter Louis into submission due to his size and speed (and later strength) and Foreman would knock him out in the 1st round due to insurmountable strength and power. Of course Holyfield is a completely superior boxer in everyway than Louis.

Lb for lb? No fighter who fought exclusively at HW (unlimited) can ever assume lb for lb status at all. The closest example might have been Mike Tyson considering he was a smaller HW fighting larger ones mostly. Marciano stat wise except he never faced a decent big opponent. Other than that, only former limit division fighters who move up to HW have the necessary skills to be considered lb for lb like Holyfield and Haye etc. Guys like LEnnox or Ali for example who rely on their size advantages as part of their style cannot translate lb for lb.

Joe Louis is a particularly silly example for anybody to suggest he was a lb for lb great fighter since, despite some classic fights against oafs where he was outsized, mostly he outsized nearly all of his opponents. More specifically, he outsized all of his skilled opponents.

If HWs like Lewis and Ali can't translate lb for lb because they rely on their size advantages, then how is Wlad in the top 10 P4P?