Marquez knocked out Pacquiao. Is he greater than Pacquiao?

[HeroBando]

Well, if you look at their careers I gie a sligh edge to Pacquio, but head to head I actually have Marquez at 4-0 vs Pacuaio, though he got robbed 3 times.

I'd say Marquez.

He wasn't robbed once, all the press scores were 50/50. But he did well enough and largely outboxed Pac you can feel he deserved at least one of the 3.

For robberies there's gotta be overwhelming agreement, or even consensus like this:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Ma...imothy_Bradley

"Among the experts above, 121 scored the bout for Pacquiao, 1 scored the bout a draw, and 1 scored the bout for Bradley."

[HeroBando]

I meant he was a better fighter in the ring. I believe that to be the case. In historical terms, those wins for Pac are more significant.

So why have Hatton so far above MAB 2 for Pac?

It's strange you think that MAB was a better fighter in the ring than Hatton, even p4p but especially h2h. He'd never won a decent fight above 130. Hatton was no stiff, he had quick feet that he also showed brutalizing Paulie.

[crold1]

So why have Hatton so far above MAB 2 for Pac?

It's strange you think that MAB was a better fighter in the ring than Hatton, even p4p but especially h2h. He'd never won a decent fight above 130. Hatton was no stiff, he had quick feet that he also showed brutalizing Paulie.

I noted that before. How he beat Hatton and what was on the line. Hatton was a good fighter. MAB was a great fighter who declined to still very good. Better, in the ring, than Hatton. One of the reasons Pac never went through him the same way he did Hatton.

I think MAB is a little better win for JMM than Pac II for similar reasons. One: one more fight of wear. Two: MAB came into JMM rated tops in class, won 6 in a row, and unified some belts in class. It's a good win for both guys. Even if you think Pac II is a better win than MAB-JMM, ok. That still doesn't mean JMM's second best win is somehow less than Pac's top ten. I disagree.

[HeroBando]

I noted that before. How he beat Hatton and what was on the line. Hatton was a good fighter. MAB was a great fighter who declined to still very good. Better, in the ring, than Hatton. One of the reasons Pac never went through him the same way he did Hatton.

Let me just understand, you mean he was better p4p or h2h? h2h is outlandish. p4p ok, but not really. Hatton was top 10 before losing to Floyd at 147, definitely top 20 when he faced Pac. I doubt MAB was top 20.

So since manner of win counts, then Pac MAB 2 > JMM MAB, and that's not Pac top 10. I get you had that wide, but most didn't (with proper reffing). MAB was old for both, but you said he was better than Hatton, so unless he went shot to **** in those 6 months, we're still bartering about JMM's 2nd best belonging in Pac's top 10.

[HeroBando]

I think MAB is a little better win for JMM than Pac II for similar reasons. One: one more fight of wear. Two: MAB came into JMM rated tops in class, won 6 in a row, and unified some belts in class. It's a good win for both guys. Even if you think Pac II is a better win than MAB-JMM, ok. That still doesn't mean JMM's second best win is somehow less than Pac's top ten. I disagree.

Alright i missed the edit. You could also say MAB got some life back after JMM, feeling aggrieved at the "robbery" and well overperforming. That 6 fight streak you mention had Juarez 1, which was a bad decision and a bad performance. Juarez 2 wasn't that great either, though I hear he smashed perennial IBF contender/champ Fana.

You understand MAB 2 is heavily discounted as a Pac win by almost everyone. So it's hard to see how it could be a great win for JMM unless we're grading on a curve

[crold1]

Let me just understand, you mean he was better p4p or h2h? h2h is outlandish. p4p ok, but not really. Hatton was top 10 before losing to Floyd at 147, definitely top 20 when he faced Pac. I doubt MAB was top 20.

So since manner of win counts, then Pac MAB 2 > JMM MAB, and that's not Pac top 10. I get you had that wide, but most didn't (with proper reffing). MAB was old for both, but you said he was better than Hatton, so unless he went shot to **** in those 6 months, we're still bartering about JMM's 2nd best belonging in Pac's top 10.

We are not going to agree on this. I'm bored. If H2H is all that matters (i.e. Hatton could beat MAB (maybe) or Marg could beat MAB (definitely), then Saskul isn't one of Pac's top 20 wins. Cause, you know, he was a Flyweight. But Pac beat him when HE was a Flyweight for the lineal crown. It's a great win. So was beating MAB when he was the consensus number one at 30. So was beating him again one later for Pac.

[J The UnBiased]

Marquez is the better fighter.

Pacquiao has the better resume.

History will be more kind to Pacquiao.

[HeroBando]

We are not going to agree on this. I'm bored. If H2H is all that matters (i.e. Hatton could beat MAB (maybe) or Marg could beat MAB (definitely), then Saskul isn't one of Pac's top 20 wins. Cause, you know, he was a Flyweight. But Pac beat him when HE was a Flyweight for the lineal crown. It's a great win. So was beating MAB when he was the consensus number one at 30. So was beating him again one later for Pac.

i never said it's all that matters, only that it matters. The higher up it happens, the more it's amplified. HW Champ beating Ruiz = yawn. RJJ beating Ruiz = something. Barkley losing to a real MW, shrug etc. I mean, if Marg still had 2 good eyes, I'd give a ton of props to JMM for taking him on cause it's so much more of physical risk than a shot Casa or Juan Diaz. Cause he would murder those guys in a hurry.

Anyway, lets agree to disagree, I gotta step away

[crold1]

Alright i missed the edit. You could also say MAB got some life back after JMM, feeling aggrieved at the "robbery" and well overperforming. That 6 fight streak you mention had Juarez 1, which was a bad decision and a bad performance. Juarez 2 wasn't that great either, though I hear he smashed perennial IBF contender/champ Fana.

You understand MAB 2 is heavily discounted as a Pac win by almost everyone. So it's hard to see how it could be a great win for JMM unless we're grading on a curve

One of the reasons MAB II gets discounted for Pac, besides perceptiosn about MAB as a fighter in that fight, is the way the fight went down. If he'd blitzed him, people would talk that up too. Since it was probably the least fight of our era's Fab Four in the ring (entertainment wise), it gets relegated MAB went into survival mode early so Pac just said, "ok, let's box." He outboxed him, using his feet and flurries. It was a good win in its own right.

[Thickback]

Manny will go down as the "greater" boxer, but to JMM is the better boxer of the 2.