Wlad surpasses Holmes...

[BattlingNelson]

did we though? Was he better than Vitali? Than Valuev? Than Ibragimov? Than Haye? We know now that he was, but we didn't know long before Chagaev.

That's opinion my friend. Not fact.

My point is, that Holmes was recognized as the champ. Wlad wasn't recognized as the champ in 2008.

Possible, but some might disagree. Again it's opinion and not fact.

[LacedUp]

That's opinion my friend. Not fact.

Possible, but some might disagree. Again it's opinion and not fact.

I agree. But you can at least agree to the fact that being lineal champ has some bearing on it, as well as having 1-2 champs as opposed to 3-4 different champs, makes Holmes' case as the champ better.

[KO'er]

Holmes had Kenny Norton and Shavers to his resume.

Plus Holmes wasn't beat twice emphatically.

[Simurgh]

Holmes had Kenny Norton and Shavers to his resume.

Plus Holmes wasn't beat twice emphatically.

He was beat by the ex light-heavyweight in his first HW fight - twice!

And what is this then?

[RadioBox]

How the *** can you be considered the #1 of your era when for the longest time everyone thinks that your older brother can Knock you the *** out?

That makes zero sense.. the public consensus is that Vitali will beat Wlad.. so Wlad was never the true champion.

[ShamrockXpress]

I agree. But you can at least agree to the fact that being lineal champ has some bearing on it, as well as having 1-2 champs as opposed to 3-4 different champs, makes Holmes' case as the champ better.

But it is not always so cut and dry that the lineal champ is THE man. From 94-97 did anyone outside of casual fans truly believe George foreman to be the man in the heavyweight division? Getting gifts over axel Schulz? Then was Shannon Briggs ever the man in the division? He beat the man who beat the man, but did he deserve the mantle over Holyfield, Lewis or even golota at that point? Wlad might not have been the lineal champ before beating chagaev, but any doubts over wether he was the man or not were put to rest after his dominating (and sleep inducing) win over sultan ibragimov.

[LacedUp]

He was beat by the ex light-heavyweight in his first HW fight - twice!

And what is this then?

Many people believe Spinks never even beat Holmes.
Holmes wasn't liked by many at the time, and there were a lot of politics going on behind the scenes in terms of ripping him off his title. Especially the second fight was a disaster.

But it is not always so cut and dry that the lineal champ is THE man. From 94-97 did anyone outside of casual fans truly believe George foreman to be the man in the heavyweight division? Getting gifts over axel Schulz? Then was Shannon Briggs ever the man in the division? He beat the man who beat the man, but did he deserve the mantle over Holyfield, Lewis or even golota at that point? Wlad might not have been the lineal champ before beating chagaev, but any doubts over wether he was the man or not were put to rest after his dominating (and sleep inducing) win over sultan ibragimov.

I agree it's not like that always, but in this case it is.

I don't remember Wlad being considered as the legitimate champ after Ibragimov. I remember people believing he was the real champ, but he didn't prove it before Chagaev.

Holmes was considered the man of the division for his entire reign.

[DreamFighter]

He was beat by the ex light-heavyweight in his first HW fight - twice!

you've nt even seen those fights or you'd never write that.

And what is this then?

[/QUOTE]


and as for old holmes v peak Tyson, that's just silly. Again, its obviously not a fight you saw, holmes did ok till he started gassing and making mistakes.

[DreamFighter]

Norton was included in HOF 8 years after he retired. I don't really rank him as high. He SD unmotivated past prime Ali that's about it. You will be surprised who will end up in HOF by the time they retire.

you'll be surprised that none of wlads opponents will be that's for sure.

Corrie Sanders might make it in post humously.

[DreamFighter]

No it doesn't.

what you said strengthened my argument, but thanks for confirming that you want to deny it now.