Measuring Manny: Has he improved since 2008?

[BoxingTech718]

Thanks for responding bro. Actually Manny's right hand activity is grossly exaggerated. Many people believe Manny improved his right hand AFTER the 2008 fight with Marquez when in actuality that's not true. Let's break this down with CompuBox and recall some analysis of ringside announcers who witness these fighters up close and personal.

When Manny Pacquiao faced Marquez, 4yrs after their first bout in 2004, he was a complete fighter with two hands. Want some proof? Suuuuuure i'll be more than glad to give ya proof.

Marquez/Pacquiao II- Rd 1 @ 2:41-2:24 mark (right after the opening bell):
"Is it round 13 of the first fight, in which case Juan Manuel's technical skills could be the difference? Or is it a different fight because Manny Pacquaio has progressed so much as a boxer and has so developed his right hand in the 4 years since the first fight?", Lampley's opening statement.

Manny had clearly developed his right hand jab and was not 1-handed fighter any more (like he was in 2004). This was in March '08, he faced Oscar in December of '08 (after fighting in June '08). People get the misconception that Manny improved dramatically by the time faced Diaz, then Oscar. But ppl don't realize all both of these fights were in 2008- after his 2nd bout w/ Marquez. The misconception happens because Pacquiao wizzed through those guys because they were stationary, less skilled opponents.

Let's compare Manny's right hand jab activity in the Oscar fight to the Marquez II fights (both these same yr- 2008) via CompuBox:

Round 1 Jabs:
Against Marquez: 4/26 (landed 4, threw 26)= 15%
Against Oscar: 2/29 (landed 2, threw 29)= 7%

Round 2 Jabs:
Against Marquez: 0/32 (landed 0, threw 32)= 0%
Against Oscar: 6/28 (landed 6, threw 28)= 21%
*********

The truth is, when Manny was fighting Marquez in the 2nd fight in 2008, Manny was using the jab but it was NOT EFFECTIVE against Marquez simply because marquez was moving his feet and head. GO LOOK AT THE FIGHT. Before you begin marveling at Manny, focus on how Marquez is responding to Manny. You'll see him moving back, keeping safe distance away from the jab as he tries to counter manny. This movement nullifies the jab because he's not stationary- there's no head available to hit with the jab. THEY ARE MOVING ALL OVER THE RING.

In contrast, when fighting Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, Diaz, Oscar, Margarito- all of these fighters stood flat footed, had no head movement, no backpedaling, poor countering skills, and was not moving in and out of Manny like Marquez did. Stationary opponents eat jabs all day. This is why Manny's recent performances stand out in fans minds so freshly because you see manny connecting those jabs. Manny was not connecting jabs at will on Marquez in the 2008 fight (because of his head and foot movement), that's why fans conveniently don't think his right hand was developed.

Manny's rhythm and timing also improved by the time he fought Marquez for the second time in March 2008. Emanuel Steward pointed that out during the fight.

It's all very clear what's going on here. Pac fans tend to glorify Manny's performance against lesser skilled boxers and disregard his less than stellar performances against the a great technical fighter like Marquez because of their lack of boxing knowledge. And by boxing knowledge I speaking to a fans' ability to analyse both fighters. Not just when they land punches but how the move around the ring and respond the activity of their opponents.

When you watch a boxing match, you have to at least watch it 4 times:

1. Watch 1 fighter to see how he's fighting
2. Watch the other fighter to see how he's responding
3. Watch the other fighter's style
4. Watch how the other fighter is responding to that style

This gives you a full view of the both fighters full potential.

I see you are new to the forum. I think you will fit right in but prepare to be verbally attacked and insulted by pac stans.

[SaiZelion]

The video shows exemplary breakdown but he shows that he is too-Marquez centric. In the fight he showed as a reference point, Pacquiao was only one-dimensional because:

• Pacquiao was almost always moving in a linear attack with a 1-2 or a 1-1-2 combo.

In that fight, Marquez would show his mastery of his range by backpedaling and countering:

a. Pacquiao's Right Jab with an outside left parry and
b. Paqcuiao's Left straight crosses with his own Right Crosses/Hooks.

But what Pacquiao have learned extensively after this fight is that Pacquiao was obviously coached to move on the OUTSIDE 45 degrees of any LEFT LEAD FIGHTER (orthodox) and counter with his "new" patented LEFT CROSS as a "jab":

• See Pacquiao throw this all night against DLH

Pacquiao also gained usage of the RIGHT LEAD HOOK:

• See Hatton, Cotto, DLH, Clottey and Margarito

But the Saien video shows that Marquez is smart and the usage of his space (by backpedaling) against Pacquiao's linear blitz. Pacquiao went up and heavier against "bullrushers" such as Hatton and Margarito.

They are right about that. But Saien concentrated too much on the 2nd fight with Marquez which obviously shows an "inferior" Pacquiao with his LINEAR KAMIKAZE ATTACK that Marquez can readily counter.

To be fair, Pacquiao did improve his:

• Lateral movements outside of opponents' left lead
• Lateral movements inside of opponents' left lead
• Lead Right Hook
• Lead Left Cross

But not against a Marquez type who "waits" to counter while backpedaling.

Did Pacquiao improve, of course he did, but not against a counter-puncher a la' Marquez with a right lead and knows how to counter.

Pacquiao improved much on his footworks against BULLRUSHERS and inevitably going nowhere but outside (the orthodox's left jab) and occasionally inside the left jab to cut across their right crosses.

That's why we need to see the 3rd fight against Marquez. To say that Pacquiao didn't improve is a farce. Though unproven against counter-punchers.

Thus also, we need to see Mayweather fight Pacquiao.

The video is Marquez centric because I'm setting up the basis from which we can draw comparisons on move forward. Marquez technique is the benchmark among Pac's latest opponents. There is a reason, Marquez has performed consistently in both fights against Manny, because of his superb boxing technique. Superb boxing technique adjusts to any style. Thus Marquez adjusted to the 2004 version of Manny, and the 2008 version of Manny who's right hand and timing were greatly improved by then.

As prove, during the opening bell of the first round, Lampley made his opening statement "Is it round 13 of the first fight, in which case Juan Manuel's technical skills could be the difference? Or is it a different fight because Manny Pacquaio has progressed so much as a boxer and has so developed his right hand in the 4 years since the first fight?", Lampley's opening statement.

Regarding Linear Attack Movement:
Pacquiao's movement was linear because Marquez was moving backwards. Pacquiao was not linear against Oscar, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, Diaz, Hatton because they were stationary. Boxing Science. I can't rotate to the right or left if my opponent is backpedaling because i'll move into his lead hand or counter. Pacquiao didn't have this concern when fighting his stationary opponents after Marquez.

Pacquiao could not move/rotate to the right because he was not connecting. Freddie Roach taught Manny to rotate to the left and/or right when after he CONNECTS the right or left hand. Pause. Go and look at footage of Pacquiao and Roach training. Roach is showing him to rotate when he connects. think about what you're seeing. Roach is standing STILL. Manny connects, then he rotates. Now, let's view fight film. Manny throws lefts and right straights against Marquez. Marquez is moving backwards- avoiding contact, Manny recoils his jabs and continues to stalk him. Manny can't rotate because he can't CONNECT, because of Marquez' movement. Manny continues to be linear, because Marquez is going backward. Manny can't rotate right or left after he misses because he'll be walking INTO counters.

On the flip side, look at the Cotto highlight, he was rotating left and right because Cotto was sitting still and Manny was able to connect. Cotto had no idea where Manny was because Manny had rotated away after he connected. It's simple boxing science. I've boxed for years, and bro, you can't rotate after a miss because a counter is coming and you'll rotate right into a counter.

Also, notice how Marquez is place holding Manny. When manny draws close, Marquez extends his left hand to hold Manny in place, that frustrates the hell out of jab activity. it's an old school technique Ali utilized frequently to measure stabilize his opponents.

[SaiZelion]

Sorry, i only agree with a small part of this video. He keeps repeating the samething over and over. No head movement and counter. Besides Floyd and JMM, who else even slightly resembles the ability to time and counter (Plese dont say Sergio.....too much size) effectly and consistent? To say that DLH was a bum is beyond crazy. Against Pac, yes he looked useless, and like a club fighter, and no one should make excuses that DLH was drained and a dead man walking. He agreed to the fight PERIOD.

Has Manny improved since 2008? Yes by leaps and bounds. So instead of just dogging all of his fights (and some are justified), include the fact that Pac has improved with both hands, and timing since 2008. Cotto is a top fighter, and being out smarted and worked by the best fighter in the world right now......comon now...really?

Bottom line is that JMM would not have the same success as he did in 2008. Pac is smarter, more patient, and has improved his ability to strafe.

Like the old saying goes......when your on top, people will always find ways to discredit you, and saying you are less than what you are. Guys like Floyd, Lebron, Kobe have been dealing with this forever. Just the way it is.

I hear ya bro lol. i know i sound like a broken record but that's because everything is founded on that simple truth: Stationary- no head movement, no foot movement etc. It's not highly complicated. It's so simple that it blows me away that ppl don't see the simple difference between Marquez and the latest 7 opponents Manny is facing.

[SaiZelion]

Since Pac teamed up with Roach his style has improved year after year. Freddie really ironed out Pac's defence - and it's a good job too because I think he would definitely have lost both Marquez fights without it.

For me Pac reached his peak against Cotto. Since then he's slid a bit. Against Clottey he got caught too often with vicious uppercuts (this must be the Achilles heel of Wild Card because Khan is wide open to them, too). Against Margarito he was committing the kind of defensive errors he had taped up 18-24 months ago.

Roach insists the Margarito fight is Pac's greatest win ever and that Pac still has two years at the top. But I wonder whether there is a slight feeling of unease. Manny is putting himself in harm's way like few fighters have done over the last twenty years - against guys who are naturally anywhere up to 15-20lbs heavier. Yes, he's winning the fights (convincingly). But when the size and power differential is so marked it won't take long before the damage becomes cumulative.

Manny has nothing left to prove. He has all the money in the world. If I were Freddie I'd be telling him to finish off Mosley (which might well be a VERY hard fight for three or four rounds), make one last attempt for Mayweather and then call it a day. Life's too short to risk it in pointless battles.

I disagree with this basis of your statement. Cotto. To access Manny's improvements against a flat footed Cotto, who has not head movmeent, and poor defensive technique puts him right back into the same perspective as the fighters he fought before marquez, between marquez II and after. Let's make this assessment when he fights a boxer with ring generalship: great head movement, foot movement, etc.

[SaiZelion]

Big props on the video, well done, sir.

Thanks bro. I have one coming up of Floyd.

[BoxingTech718]

I think another way we could see what's what is if Emannuel Steward can teach Cotto some fundamentals of movement. Then have a rematch fight with Pac vs Cotto. Also the weight draining thing has a way of making fighters even more lethargic and flatfooted than normal. There is a reason why team pac likes to play with weight and make fighters not come in at their best.

[savorduhflavor]

Cotto and Margarito made the same mistake...well with Margarito, it's more just how he fights, but they treated Manny like he was a little guy and they physically wanted to impose their will.

Cotto has never been a great defensive fighter, never will be. But he IS a good counter puncher, and does have skills to trouble Manny. Problem was, he went in there and as soon as Manny started to touch him he started to abandon any semblance of discipline. But that's Cotto's problem, it always has been.

Clottey was just a punching bag, DLH was a zombie, and Hatton....lets just face it, he was never that good.

Cotto and Margarito were good wins for Manny though, catchweights be damned.

[SaiZelion]

I think another way we could see what's what is if Emannuel Steward can teach Cotto some fundamentals of movement. Then have a rematch fight with Pac vs Cotto. Also the weight draining thing has a way of making fighters even more lethargic and flatfooted than normal. There is a reason why team pac likes to play with weight and make fighters not come in at their best.

ya know, the more i watch fights, and the more i breakdown match-ups, i really begin to wonder how good these trainers really are? Think about it, we get hit by the glits and glamour of the lights and camera. But let's really analyze these guys. When most fighters go to the corner, their trainers/coaches advise them with loud, yelling, incoherent advise.

Noel Judah is a prime example. When Floyd made his adjustment, and Zab had no answers in the squared-circle, he returned to his corner. And round after round Noel Judah offered loud, incoherent rants, "ZAB! You gotta BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM, HA! HA! HUHG! HA! Ya know what i mean?! You gotta get in there- BOOM BOOM BOOM! **while making punching movements in front of Zab as examples)). I was blown away by his lack of ability to analyze what adjustments Mayweather was making against his fighter (and son) and articulate counter measures to take against Mayweather. The more I took note of that, the more i began to study other trainers and I noticed the same thing. This all make me wonder, how good are many of these trainers? Honestly?

Emmanuel Steward is wonderful! he breaks down opponents so well, it's not even funny. We bow to your boxing knowledge Oh Emmanuel!

[SaiZelion]

Cotto and Margarito made the same mistake...well with Margarito, it's more just how he fights, but they treated Manny like he was a little guy and they physically wanted to impose their will.

Cotto has never been a great defensive fighter, never will be. But he IS a good counter puncher, and does have skills to trouble Manny. Problem was, he went in there and as soon as Manny started to touch him he started to abandon any semblance of discipline. But that's Cotto's problem, it always has been.

Clottey was just a punching bag, DLH was a zombie, and Hatton....lets just face it, he was never that good.

Cotto and Margarito were good wins for Manny though, catchweights be damned.

Of all the fighters Manny has faced since Marquez, I agree that Cotto was the best win of them all.

[BoZz]

"Measuring Manny" is an in-depth evaluation of Manny Pacquiao since his 2nd bout with Marquez in 2008. This is a not a long write up, this is a video documentary with in depth fight footage detailing Manny's style of fighting, and his opponents.

• How much has Manny's boxing improved?
• Has the quality/skill of opponent he's faced improved since Marquez in '08?

I said it from the beginning he moved up in weight knowing that the fools he's gonna face would drop a lot of weight and come in weight drained.

He looked horrible against JMM,many thought it was his end but then he started fooling everyone by beating damaged goods,now he's fighting floyds 3rd left over in old mosley..how pathetic.