Measuring Manny: Has he improved since 2008?

[Pullcounter]

Very educational video for the fans who don't get to see the small things that make a fight.

I've been saying this for months, it doesn't matter if the fight is at 147 for Marquez. Marquez would still give Pacquiao problems and he knows this. In the end styles make fights, and Marquez has that style that will ALWAYS give Pacquiao problems. Yet people don't want to accept it. They think Marquez would get KOed in 3. It's a fantasy that they love living because their hero to them is unbeatable.

Also, I've said that Floyd-Manny wouldn't be a competitive fight. It won't be.

who's alt are you?

[p4p-champ]

Big props on the video, well done, sir.

[Mugwump]

My only criticism of the video is that it doesn't pay enough heed to weight and the affect it has on foot speed.

Yes, Pac's opponents since Marquez haven't been as fast on their feet. But it's a lot harder to be so with extra lbs on your back. Pac's own footspeed has been dulled considerably and at times against Margarito he looked almost leaden-footed (not that it mattered).

If we do see Pac vs Marquez III and it is at a much higher weight than the previous fight then I can't see Marquez lasting very long because he won't have the speed to back away from Pac's attacks and set up for his counters.

I should also say that Mayweather himself has slowed down since he came up.

[BoxingTech718]

I don't think honestly you can make any conclusions until Manny faces a great boxer in his prime like JMM was again. Good video and commentary I think boxing fans know what's really up with the whole pacman thing. Me, I'm just going to withhold judgment until he faces another great technician.

[fabie]

the fact that pac is even stronger now, im sure that JMM wouldnt "pressed for an attack." i think he would minimize his aggressiveness totally and be a nearly pure counter puncher. hard for him to do but im sure he knows thats what hes have to do

fact of the matter is that there isnt much improvement in pac but *******s seem to think there is b/c they dont understand boxing.

its come down to a very careful selection of opponents tailormade for pacs style. its that simple.

floyd will totally expose pac when pac takes those test. there is no doubt about it.

floyd will show how many classes above pac hes always been then the excuses will pour out for why pac lost

I concur...I think that this is part of Pacquiao's new maturity while Marquez has always been a superior counter-puncher, and for me a master at that. Mayweather definitely is THE master of course.

I have written a thread MY TAKE ON PACQUIAO VS MAYWEATHER with my long written points (if you care to read them). It goes along the lines with what you're saying but though extended.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=439314

I think that we fans tend to pit the "prime" boxer A against "prime" boxer B and so in case of Pacquiao vs Mayweather, I think that both have regressed from their prime already. Specifically, I think that Mayweather have lost a step or two, but still very effective while Pacquiao is on the way down gradually.

I've also discussed that Mayweather haven't "aged" relatively due to his style that is for posterity's sake and true to self-defensive nature...to preserve himself and thus the conservatism in his defense-first approach and very scientific. But I think that his hiatus would also affect him if not the psychological factor. Mayweather has been blessed with a squirrel-cat-quick mind and body that it is a luxury for him to "age" and not get slow.

With Pacquiao, he has been taken a beating. His style and bravado is a gambiteering type, TO GET HIT INORDER TO OPEN UP THE OPPONENT type. And in this light, though younger, he has physically "aged" in comparison to Mayweather. Coupled by the fact that he has gained weight and gotten older too, I've noticed his speed wasn't his usual speed though he is not "slow" at all. His combinations are still phenomenal.

But if anything or anyone, I would give the best opportunity for Pacquiao a puncher's chance, that if "he hit Mayweather, the floodgates would open for combinations for the kill". But obviously that is easier said than done.

But to put it succinctly, it is one dream for us hardcore boxing fans to see.

I think that generally speaking it is safe to say that Mayweather would win and teach Pacquiao a lesson or two, I think that too. But I also give a possibility for Pacquiao in the early rounds to win for the TKO or KO until Mayweather adjust in the latter rounds for the win, a la' Mayweather vs Zab Judah.

But if we can see Pacquiao fight Marquez and then Mayweather (or vice versa in order), then I would be a happy camper. But me thinks that if Pacquiao wins or losses vs Mayweather it could be his last fight.

Being greedy as a pugilist fan I also wanted Pacquiao to fight Martinez.

[arum_aka_T]

The video shows exemplary breakdown but he shows that he is too-Marquez centric. In the fight he showed as a reference point, Pacquiao was only one-dimensional because:

• Pacquiao was almost always moving in a linear attack with a 1-2 or a 1-1-2 combo.

In that fight, Marquez would show his mastery of his range by backpedaling and countering:

a. Pacquiao's Right Jab with an outside left parry and
b. Paqcuiao's Left straight crosses with his own Right Crosses/Hooks.

But what Pacquiao have learned extensively after this fight is that Pacquiao was obviously coached to move on the OUTSIDE 45 degrees of any LEFT LEAD FIGHTER (orthodox) and counter with his "new" patented LEFT CROSS as a "jab":

• See Pacquiao throw this all night against DLH

Pacquiao also gained usage of the RIGHT LEAD HOOK:

• See Hatton, Cotto, DLH, Clottey and Margarito

But the Saien video shows that Marquez is smart and the usage of his space (by backpedaling) against Pacquiao's linear blitz. Pacquiao went up and heavier against "bullrushers" such as Hatton and Margarito.

They are right about that. But Saien concentrated too much on the 2nd fight with Marquez which obviously shows an "inferior" Pacquiao with his LINEAR KAMIKAZE ATTACK that Marquez can readily counter.

To be fair, Pacquiao did improve his:

• Lateral movements outside of opponents' left lead
• Lateral movements inside of opponents' left lead
• Lead Right Hook
• Lead Left Cross

But not against a Marquez type who "waits" to counter while backpedaling.

Did Pacquiao improve, of course he did, but not against a counter-puncher a la' Marquez with a right lead and knows how to counter.

Pacquiao improved much on his footworks against BULLRUSHERS and inevitably going nowhere but outside (the orthodox's left jab) and occasionally inside the left jab to cut across their right crosses.

That's why we need to see the 3rd fight against Marquez. To say that Pacquiao didn't improve is a farce. Though unproven against counter-punchers.

Thus also, we need to see Mayweather fight Pacquiao.

Great Point.

[SaiZelion]

i was wondering that also

I used iMovie 11 guys.

[SaiZelion]

what kind of software did you use to edit the video !!!!!

I used iMovie 11.

[SaiZelion]

One thing I didn't notice him mention in the video, is how little Pac threw the right and his hooker-cut. Two puches that were very important in all his next fights. I get what he's saying about Marquez backing up and yes, that is important vs Pac but there are plenty of subtle differences in Pac that I just don't think he acknowledges.

Thanks for responding bro. Actually Manny's right hand activity is grossly exaggerated. Many people believe Manny improved his right hand AFTER the 2008 fight with Marquez when in actuality that's not true. Let's break this down with CompuBox and recall some analysis of ringside announcers who witness these fighters up close and personal.

When Manny Pacquiao faced Marquez, 4yrs after their first bout in 2004, he was a complete fighter with two hands. Want some proof? Suuuuuure i'll be more than glad to give ya proof.

Marquez/Pacquiao II- Rd 1 @ 2:41-2:24 mark (right after the opening bell):
"Is it round 13 of the first fight, in which case Juan Manuel's technical skills could be the difference? Or is it a different fight because Manny Pacquaio has progressed so much as a boxer and has so developed his right hand in the 4 years since the first fight?", Lampley's opening statement.

Manny had clearly developed his right hand jab and was not 1-handed fighter any more (like he was in 2004). This was in March '08, he faced Oscar in December of '08 (after fighting in June '08). People get the misconception that Manny improved dramatically by the time faced Diaz, then Oscar. But ppl don't realize all both of these fights were in 2008- after his 2nd bout w/ Marquez. The misconception happens because Pacquiao wizzed through those guys because they were stationary, less skilled opponents.

Let's compare Manny's right hand jab activity in the Oscar fight to the Marquez II fights (both these same yr- 2008) via CompuBox:

Round 1 Jabs:
Against Marquez: 4/26 (landed 4, threw 26)= 15%
Against Oscar: 2/29 (landed 2, threw 29)= 7%

Round 2 Jabs:
Against Marquez: 0/32 (landed 0, threw 32)= 0%
Against Oscar: 6/28 (landed 6, threw 28)= 21%
*********

The truth is, when Manny was fighting Marquez in the 2nd fight in 2008, Manny was using the jab but it was NOT EFFECTIVE against Marquez simply because marquez was moving his feet and head. GO LOOK AT THE FIGHT. Before you begin marveling at Manny, focus on how Marquez is responding to Manny. You'll see him moving back, keeping safe distance away from the jab as he tries to counter manny. This movement nullifies the jab because he's not stationary- there's no head available to hit with the jab. THEY ARE MOVING ALL OVER THE RING.

In contrast, when fighting Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, Diaz, Oscar, Margarito- all of these fighters stood flat footed, had no head movement, no backpedaling, poor countering skills, and was not moving in and out of Manny like Marquez did. Stationary opponents eat jabs all day. This is why Manny's recent performances stand out in fans minds so freshly because you see manny connecting those jabs. Manny was not connecting jabs at will on Marquez in the 2008 fight (because of his head and foot movement), that's why fans conveniently don't think his right hand was developed.

Manny's rhythm and timing also improved by the time he fought Marquez for the second time in March 2008. Emanuel Steward pointed that out during the fight.

It's all very clear what's going on here. Pac fans tend to glorify Manny's performance against lesser skilled boxers and disregard his less than stellar performances against the a great technical fighter like Marquez because of their lack of boxing knowledge. And by boxing knowledge I speaking to a fans' ability to analyse both fighters. Not just when they land punches but how the move around the ring and respond the activity of their opponents.

When you watch a boxing match, you have to at least watch it 4 times:

1. Watch 1 fighter to see how he's fighting
2. Watch the other fighter to see how he's responding
3. Watch the other fighter's style
4. Watch how the other fighter is responding to that style

This gives you a full view of the both fighters full potential.

[SaiZelion]

Great Point.

Actually you're incorrect, see my post above.