Toney-Ruiz and why JT won't beat V-Klitschko

[oldgringo]

I didn't agree with what Jones said about Vitali either. Vitali IMO would be Toneys hardest fight. Achilles...im glad to see you giving James credit after ****ting on him for so long though.

[Winter]

I hope Vitali will get to fight Toney. Vitali is very difficult to beat. Everyone who fights Vitali are always surprised by Vitali.

[m00ks]

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

[AintGottaClue]

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

id liek to know how exactly toney will get on the inside lmao

[The Pretender]

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.

[legend]

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

From what I've heard, punching down gives you more power due to gravity and more leverage. Punching up against gravity is what would diminish your power. The only way Toney wins this is if Vitali gets in a car wreck on the way to the arena.

[oldgringo]

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.

Toney has a prayer..."guys like you" are the same guys who were saying, "James Toney is a fat blown up middleweight who hasn't taken a heavyweight punch yada yada..."

Ruiz was a legit heavy who, even though he's boring as ****, finds a way to win against other legit fighters like Golota and Rahman. Toney beat him soundly and I think that says something about Toneys chances with Vitali.

Hey Sturm...did you watch the fight?

[m00ks]

From what I've heard, punching down gives you more power due to gravity and more leverage. Punching up against gravity is what would diminish your power. The only way Toney wins this is if Vitali gets in a car wreck on the way to the arena.

well you use your legs as leverage when you punch. when you put weight on your legs, you push with yourlegs to get power and your tendency would be to go up. I don't see how putting weight on your legs then punching down would generate more power. It's unnatural.

[Sir_Jose]

First of all I have to say that was a great fight. It far exceeded my expectations. I give credit not only to Toney's exciting counterpunching but also Ruiz's insistance on fighting in a crowd pleasing manner. In losing, he may have gotten more respect than he would have in winning his usual way. That is not to say I think he could beat Toney by clinching. No, Toney is head and shoulders above Ruiz.

HOWEVER, some of the comments by RJJ were ridiculous. James Toney would have his way with Vitali? Vitali, who is so big and so strong and a sound tacticion himself? Let's put Toney's performance in perspective.

Toney fought a great fight and Ruiz very rarely landed anything memorable. However, he did enjoy some success with his jab and John Ruiz does not have an especially good jab. Vitali does. If Ruiz was able to establish his jab, then Vitali will as well. Common sense. Vitali has a better and harder jab than Ruiz, and he is much taller on top of that. Vitali's jab and height alone will present some formidable challenges for the 5'9" Toney.

As far as looking at Toney as a heavyweight, I don't buy it. He will always be a blown up middleweight. I don't care what he weighed when he played football. I was 215 pounds in HS with 17" biceps and a 46" chest. I consider myself a natural light heavyweight. Perhaps even a super middleweight if I were to get into great shape, and would never entertain the notion of fighting as a heavyweight.

Fighting shape and football shape are very very different things. Anthony Mundine plays rugby. Do you think the guy weighs 168 when doing so? I don't. I would guess he's 190 on the field AT LEAST.

Let's look at the evidence. Ruiz got the better of every single clinch. True, most of the time Toney just let himself get pushed back but there were times when Toney tried to resist and muscle his way in and Ruiz easily shoved him back. Ruiz has fair strength at heavyweight, but he has nothing on Vitali, one of the physically strongest fighters I've ever seen.

Punching power? Toney's has nothing to brag about at heavyweight. He landed nearly 60% of his power punches, many of them flush right hands to Ruiz's chin, and he only hurt Ruiz on a few occasions. Pretty good for a middleweight right, stunning a natural heavyweight and all? Yeah, except he isn't fighting at middleweight. He's supposed to be a heavyweight and when you land 60% of your power punches (most of them swift counterpunches that Ruiz didnt even SEE) on an opponent and you don't score one legit knockdown, you can't seriously call yourself a power puncher.

What Toney does have on his side are possibly the swiftest hands in the division right now, a solid chin that withstood some decent heavyweight shots (I wouldn't call it granite at HW until he eats a good shot by a real puncher), and awesome defensive skills. His parries were remarkable in how casual yet effective they were. Oh yeah, and ring generalship.

Toney knows the score in there. He's knows when to go easy and take a breather and when to go nuts and take some respect (but never getting carried away or emotional). He is calm and punches accurately with speed and fluidity. He is P4P the best heavyweight (albeit a false one) since Roy Jones decided to dip his feet into the division's water.

Toney impressed me a lot and I think a Vitali match would be an entertaining affair that he has a slight shot at if only because of Vitali's lack of stamina. However to think he would be favored in that fight, or that he could possibly hurt Vitali, is a foolish assumption. Vitali is just too big and too smart to allow a small heavyweight like Toney to fight his fight.

Aren't you the same guy who claims size doesn't mean anything in boxing? Yeah I think thats you. When I try and tell you Lennox Lewis is just way to big for Joe Louis you go off saying how it doesn't matter because HJoe Louis is just so much more skilled and what not, now you saying Toney couldn't beat Vitali even though Toney is 10x more skilled than Vitali.

Ruiz established his jab and got the better on the inside? would you like to tell me what fight you were watching?

I think Roy Jones was right on. James would see Vitali's punches coming from a mile away. Vilati does not throw punches in bunches and even if he does try and trown combinations he's way to slow. Vitali does not bring his jab up after he trows it he lets it drop. Not to mention Vitali's body would be open for James all day long.

As far as not being able to hurt Vitali goes that doesn't matter becuae James will be looking to out point him not knock him out.

Like you also said Vitali has horrible stamina and has already quit in a fight.

[m00ks]

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.

Why you quoting me about Ruiz if I enevr mentioned him in my post. But you're right, Ruiz is a lousey fighter. Good call. He took the underdog 12 rounds when he was labeled the favorite...he was suppose to win. And when you say Toney don't even have a prayer, you're watching the wrong sport. I've seen a lot more shocking **** than if I see JT get a decision over Vitali.