Victor Conte talking steroids, Pacquiao and Boxing

[Jose Rizal]

“If you have a 24-day window that’s free, with no testing, you can take whatever you want and you’re not going to get caught, end of story,” Catlin said. “[Urine testing] does matter, yes, but they’re not going to catch everything by urine testing alone. What you would do is to take Mircera [a type of EPO], which is available and which is not easy to detect in urine and away you go. You need a blood test.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/box/ne...&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Question is: Would the 24-day cutoff be acceptable to the testing bodies? I think yes so what's the problem? Whether the doctor's assertion is true or not, that would be a problem for for the whole prevailing system and it's not Pac's concern, yet Pac was still willing to be tested within the bounds of the prevailing one that Floyd was asking for, EVEN IF HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

Floyd asked for Olympic standard testing and Pac conceded, just not too close to fight night. He can be tested further after the fight to see if he took anything illegal during that window, and if he did juice up he would be found out.

I think that's reasonable enough, especially when considering he's never failed a drug test in his whole career and that all this controversy stemmed from baseless allegations by Mayweather's dad that have grown out of proportion because of hearsay and wild speculations, and that these level of scrutiny is unprecedented in the history of the sport.

It's like you're guilty until proven innocent.

Floyd should just ***in sign the contract quit the mind games if he really has the balls for this fight.

[IMDAZED]

It's funny were not even talking about steroids anymore but EPO meant for stamina use.

While i see merit in logging RBC levels--from the grand scheme of things it's better suited after the fight if Pacquiao's RBC levels are off the charts. Blood tests, as the USADA mentioned, is good for looking at EPO during a certain time frame.

My question must've been very, very difficult to answer. Obviously you never will.

Fine.

However...what you have written here is not so fine.

The USADA has never said that blood testing is good for "looking at EPO at a certain time" (what does that even mean?). That's what URINE tests do. They've stated the blood test is good because it tracks the red blood cell count. Read:

But it looks at a host of parameters or biological markers that are natural to everyone's body. And over time -- if you look at those for an individual -- over time, you can see variability or fluctuations in those naturally occurring markers that we all have. And if you see fluctuations to a certain degree, you can conclusively determine that those fluctuations were caused by nothing other than drug use, and certain categories of drug use. Not necessarily a specific drug, but categories of drug use. I think that it's fair to say that there are several, very potent, performance enhancing drugs that only blood can detect, and there is an entirely different method of detecting broader categories of drug use through parameter testing that is done with the blood.

Read further:

So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

And finally:

So it's hard for me to understand -- and this is not a specific comment about any of the fighters involved here -- but it's hard for me to understand why any athlete wouldn't want the same program that all of our Olympic athletes have.

That is, if they understand these issues, and they're familiar with the programs, and they're educated on the mild inconvenience, and they appreciate the importance of a level playing field.

Good night.

[Carpe Diem]

Question is: Would the 24-day cutoff be acceptable to the testing bodies? I think yes so what's the problem? Whether the doctor's assertion is true or not, that would be a problem for for the whole prevailing system and it's not Pac's concern, yet Pac was still willing to be tested within the bounds of the prevailing one that Floyd was asking for, EVEN IF HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

Floyd asked for Olympic standard testing and Pac conceded, just not too close to fight night. He can be tested further after the fight to see if he took anything illegal during that window, and if he did juice up he would be found out.

I think that's reasonable enough, especially when considering he's never failed a drug test in his whole career and that all this controversy stemmed from baseless allegations by Mayweather's dad that have grown out of proportion because of hearsay and wild speculations, and that these level of scrutiny is unprecedented in the history of the sport.

It's like you're guilty until proven innocent.

Floyd should just ***in sign the contract quit the mind games if he really has the balls for this fight.

Look dude, your opinion is just as invalid as mine. If a Doctor said it would be useless, i have to take his/her words for what its worth. My opinion and yours are invalid.

[Carpe Diem]

My question must've been very, very difficult to answer. Obviously you never will.

Fine.

However...what you have written here is not so fine.

The USADA has never said that blood testing is good for "looking at EPO at a certain time" (what does that even mean?). That's what URINE tests do. They've stated the blood test is good because it tracks the red blood cell count. Read:

But it looks at a host of parameters or biological markers that are natural to everyone's body. And over time -- if you look at those for an individual -- over time, you can see variability or fluctuations in those naturally occurring markers that we all have. And if you see fluctuations to a certain degree, you can conclusively determine that those fluctuations were caused by nothing other than drug use, and certain categories of drug use. Not necessarily a specific drug, but categories of drug use. I think that it's fair to say that there are several, very potent, performance enhancing drugs that only blood can detect, and there is an entirely different method of detecting broader categories of drug use through parameter testing that is done with the blood.

Read further:

So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

And finally:

So it's hard for me to understand -- and this is not a specific comment about any of the fighters involved here -- but it's hard for me to understand why any athlete wouldn't want the same program that all of our Olympic athletes have.

That is, if they understand these issues, and they're familiar with the programs, and they're educated on the mild inconvenience, and they appreciate the importance of a level playing field.

Good night.

OWNED

[Jose Rizal]

So I'm asking you, in your opinion, should any fighter be excused from these kind of tests just because they say it affects them mentally?

I've asked the same question at least 5-6 times now. Won't ask again.

If it's required by the rules than no fighter should be exempted.

They should change the rules of the sport if they want that kind of stricter testing done and not arbitrarily subject someone to that kind of ordeal outside the parameters of what is currently required by the sport, otherwise it would be unfair to that fighter.

Change the rules to require EVERYONE to be tested to the standards that Floyd Mayweather Jr. wants and it will be fair.

[mazdaru]

How should I know--I'm neither Pacquiao nor Mayweather.

we know you are a *******

[Xcusemymood]

From the same person in regards to EPO use.

Question:
2) I've heard a lot about using both a blood and urine test to detect EPO use. Doesn't an athlete have to test positive for EPO on both the blood and urine test to be considered a doper?

No.

Blood testing has received a lot of attention because it is a new concept in the drug testing world. There is a blood test for EPO use, but it is only an indirect test that can be used as a screening measure to save money by determining whether the urine EPO test needs to be conducted. All the blood test does is tell the testers that the athlete has an unusual blood profile that warrants further investigation. The abnormal profile could be caused by the use of EPO, some other blood boosting drug, or just be explained by the athlete being a genetic freak or living at altitude. The testers then perform the urine EPO test to determine whether artificial EPO is the cause of the abnormality.

The blood test does not have to be done in order for the athlete to test positive for EPO.

http://www.letsrun.com/2003/epoqa.php

From WADA:

When was a test to detect EPO implemented?

A test for EPO was introduced at the 2000 Summer Olympic Games in Sydney (Australia). The test, validated by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), was based on the blood and urine matrix. A blood screening was performed first, and a urine test was then used to confirm possible use of EPO.

In June 2003, WADA’s Executive Committee accepted the results of an independent report stating that urine tests alone can be used to detect the presence of recombinant EPO. This report, requested by WADA’s stakeholders and commissioned by the Agency to evaluate the validity of urinary and blood tests for detecting the presence of recombinant EPO, concluded that urinary testing is the only scientifically validated method for direct detection of recombinant EPO. This report also recommended that urine testing be used in conjunction with blood screening for a variety of reasons, including the cost savings of performing blood screening prior to testing urine. Some international sports federations still use both urine and blood matrix for the detection of EPO. Recently, the urine test was adapted to blood to perform detection of some new erythropoiesis stimulating agents.

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Resources...EPO-Detection/

All that said and wouldnt it still be better to do both?

[Xcusemymood]

Question is: Would the 24-day cutoff be acceptable to the testing bodies? I think yes so what's the problem? Whether the doctor's assertion is true or not, that would be a problem for for the whole prevailing system and it's not Pac's concern, yet Pac was still willing to be tested within the bounds of the prevailing one that Floyd was asking for, EVEN IF HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

Floyd asked for Olympic standard testing and Pac conceded, just not too close to fight night. He can be tested further after the fight to see if he took anything illegal during that window, and if he did juice up he would be found out.

I think that's reasonable enough, especially when considering he's never failed a drug test in his whole career and that all this controversy stemmed from baseless allegations by Mayweather's dad that have grown out of proportion because of hearsay and wild speculations, and that these level of scrutiny is unprecedented in the history of the sport.

It's like you're guilty until proven innocent.

Floyd should just ***in sign the contract quit the mind games if he really has the balls for this fight.

Have you even read the thread? You are waaaaay behind....

[IMDAZED]

All that said and wouldnt it still be better to do both?

Leave him alone. Seriously. He has ignored every comment that has silenced him. His trick is to regurgitate what the urine test can do while refusing to point out what it can't. He also ignores the purpose of blood testing and pretends the urine test will suffice but if you read between the lines...ehh, what am I saying? You've been reading this thread already!

[Bee Keepz]

All that said and wouldnt it still be better to do both?

It would, thus you have the 3 blood tests. If Pacquiao is on EPO there is a lab out there with lab results that has Pacquiao's hgb/hct levels. You can't just put someone on EPO, you have to get a baseline info on their CBC, and monitor it. EPO is dangerous specially for boxers, for one they already dehydrate and train at high altitudes increasing their hct levels, you add EPO to that you run the risk of polycythemia.