HOLYFIELD beats Usyk at Cruiser or HW.

[MalevolentBite]

If American football dominates because it attracts the most talent, then how do you explain why American athletes still dominate track and field—despite those same athletes supposedly being pulled away? Why doesn’t that talent drain affect Olympic sprinting? And If football is America’s soccer, then wouldn’t that make American boxing today like Brazil’s volleyball...popular but no longer dominant globally? And wouldn’t that say more about the globalization of talent than the ‘failure’ of Americans?

The NBA is Europeanized ?

If the NBA's shift toward fundamentals, shooting, and spacing reflects ‘Europeanization,’ doesn’t that suggest foreign players are bringing a skillset that the American system has deprioritized? Isn’t that exactly what competition is supposed to do..evolve the game? I've noticed there's tons more of three point attempts, but we can blame that on Steph Curry, not Euro players.

Your line of thinking in a nutshell: Americans no longer dominate. Therefore, the game must be broken.

So you also said: “Baseball was better when they had black Americans playing more.”

Ok but if a sport is only great when a specific race dominates it, then what does that say about the sport? Shouldn’t greatness come from competition instead of racial ****geneity? If, as you argue, the decline of Black American presence in baseball directly correlates with a loss of cultural relevance or “quality” in the sport, how do you explain Shohei Ohtani?

I mean here is a Japanese player, born and raised far outside the American or Black American sports culture you’re focused on and yet by 2025:

The guy reached 250 HRs and 150 stolen bases in fewer games than anyone in history.
He also was the first player ever to post 50 HRs and 50 stolen bases in a single season.

He's basically a dominant pitcher and elite slugger, something we haven’t seen since Babe Ruth (and even Ruth wasn’t this fast).

He’s a unanimous MVP, a global icon, and here’s the kicker!.. Ohtani’s dominance hasn’t hurt the sport’s image. It’s elevated it—both domestically and globally.
So if baseball was only “great” when Black Americans were more involved, what does it say about its current state when a Japanese player is literally rewriting the record books and captivating the entire sports world?

Should we say baseball is less American now? Or just... more global?

Because that’s the part your framework keeps skipping..In other words, sports aren't in decline just because they’re no longer defined by one culture or race. They're evolving, just like basketball, just like boxing.

You're holding onto a model of dominance that depends on exclusivity..on one group at the center. When that changes, you interpret it as decline. But that's not decline. That's competition.

greatness is still happening. Just not always where you're used to seeing it.

(The most dominant player in baseball is Asian.The most dominant players in basketball (MVPs) since 2018 have been non-American. The top heavyweights in boxing are etc..etc...)

And if your worldview can't process that without seeing it as a loss instead of a shift, then maybe the problem isn’t the athletes or the sports.

Maybe it's the lens.

Most track and field athletes in high school are or dual sport athletes. I played football in the fall and track in the spring. Thats always been the case theres alot of track and field players that play other sports. The ones who go to the olympics aren't big enough and strong enough to compete at the higher levels in the present day NFL. Back in the day their were people like Bob Hays that did both.

Dude I am not in responding to you anymore.
because you are not American and trying to tell American about American culture. You sound nuts

the fact is blacks are some of the most dominant athletes in sports. The best boxer is black, the best basketball player is black, the best baseball player is black. Golf tiger woods is probably top 3. Soccer its also black Pele ( has African blood), track and field is black.

Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights.

Listen do you know how big America is ? I can go to Philadelphia right now and ask 10 random people who Shohei Ohtani they wouldn't know. I could go to any major city and ask them again and nobody would know. I dont even really know who he is but I follow the Yankess. I bet more people know Derek Jeter ( who's half black) or Judge ( who is half black) than Shohei Ohtani.

Baseball is no longer Americans popular sport it hasnt been since the 50s, 60s and 70s thats also when black Americans played baseball the most. America no matter how racist views black athletes superior and they are marketed the most. They are in commercials and movies. Shohei Ohtani will never be in a major tv commercial or be in Hollywood movies. Americans like their sports played by Americans!! Alot of older white people stopped watching baseball due to all the Hispanics and thats a fact.

baseball and basketball are becoming more global and are also becoming less popular than before.

The Asian player is dominating a league without Black Americans just like Usyk and Klitschkos thats no different than Babe Ruth who played behind the color line or those old white heavyweight champions. Once Black's came in it was different lol.

When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol.

Basketball talent wise for Americans are on the decline. I actually sit and watch American high school games. You dont because you are not American! I watch college basketball. You probably dont. I am from CT. We have one of the best women's and men's college basketball program in the COUNTRY. You not talking to me about no damn basketball. America is not putting out a good product. It has nothing to do with it being rigged. They changed the rules to allow a more offensive style of play and indirectly it ruin the game for people in my generation. Once again getting rid of the hand check and low post play and adding the euro step ruined basketball imo and the numbers show it.

I have no issues with people from the former Yugoslavia. They can play basketball but let's keep it buck in the 90s they couldn't go in the paint they were to weak! They made their careers doing mid range jumpers. Now basketball is nothing but up tempo 3 pointers.

We can agree to disagree since you are not American eve. Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers. Usyk and Klitschkos never went against an elite black heavyweight.

Imo the last great American was Ridd1ck bowe some will say tyson but i think hes a fraud.

No need to reply if you cant answer this. 20 years after the creation of the first superbowl Did America produce an elite heavyweight regardless of race ?

Yes or No ?

[MalevolentBite]

This is exactly why I hate so many so called fight fans
They ignore facts to glorify their dude.
Yes, Usyk is a quality fighter.
Trapped in the worst HW era the sport has ever seen.
Still, I think he'd be a difficult opp for some notable HWs
Would catch a lot of L's, though.

Thank you. They are mostly British people who dont know the lasting cultural impact the NFL had on boxings talent pool. They really believe America produced their best product for boxing in Deontay Wilder lol. In the 90s and 80s, Deontay Wilder wouldn't even make it to the olympics lol.

They want to try to downplay Americans thinking we are now not good at boxing. We are not good at boxing because nobody above 175lbs boxes anymore lol. They all play in the NFL. Plus if you had a son who was 6ft tall and 200lb would you rather him get a free college tuition and play in the NFL versus joining a corrupt sport like boxing to get hit in the head for a living?

Do these britsh people realize how much high schools make from their football programs in the south? Millions. Go to Texas and see their high school facilities. Then college the NCAA makes billions each year in college football. Why would anyone tell their kid to do boxing over football ?

[IronDanHamza]

Dude you are trolling lol. So holyfield was in his prime now for Byrd? Lol.

I clearly said holyfield wasnt in his prime in either fight but he was ranked. Dude get a wife. You dont get no play and you probably dont even work. I stated my statement the same way. Log off and get some play lol.

I get the sense that you have the brain capacity of a child. Were you held back in school? You make statements, they get addressed or challenged and you go off on a irrelevant tangent.

No Holyfield wasn’t prime when he fought Byrd. He was old, like YOU said.

Meaning, being old vs Byrd, a year later he was even older. And thus, by default, NOT a top fighter at that time.

It’s an extremely fucking simple concept. The moment you admitted that Holyfield was old vs Byrd, your entire previous argument imploded.

[MalevolentBite]

I get the sense that you have the brain capacity of a child. Were you held back in school? You make statements, they get addressed or challenged and you go off on a irrelevant tangent.

No Holyfield wasn’t prime when he fought Byrd. He was old, like YOU said.

Meaning, being old vs Byrd, a year later he was even older. And thus, by default, NOT a top fighter at that time.

It’s an extremely fucking simple concept. The moment you admitted that Holyfield was old vs Byrd, your entire previous argument imploded.

Anyone who gets on a level of a child is also childish in nature. No wonder you dont get any play. You spend your time making up false narratives. You need to log off of boxingscene and buy one of those blow up dolls. I understand its probably shameful but being an online troll who get cant play is not healthy for your mental health. Dan. I really want you to be happy. Try finding a coupon online for a blow up doll and enjoy it you really need it.

A top fighter is a ranked fighter. We been over this. Holyfield was ranked by two sanctioning bodies and also the ring in the toney fight. He was ranked by the IBF in the byrd fight. He took the fights for money and lost in each one due to him being old but he was still considered to be a top fighter based on the ranking system I have no control over the ranking system. However if you want to say his ranking has no validity then thats an argument towards whether or not should we put merit in boxing rankings which would be a interesting conversation to explore. In my opinion if you ranked you are a top fighter wether I agree with the ranking or not.

You been on here since 2009 with over 40k post.

And stop responding to my messages since its childish. Now if you respond again. Then I know you dont even agree with your low level insults of me lol.

Get that blow up doll.

[El_Mero]

With or without PEDs?

Bump...we don't know how long Evan Fields was cos playing as Evander

[megas30]

This is a non-competition. Holyfield was too tough and too skill for Usyk.

[ONOFF]

Most track and field athletes in high school are or dual sport athletes. I played football in the fall and track in the spring. Thats always been the case theres alot of track and field players that play other sports. The ones who go to the olympics aren't big enough and strong enough to compete at the higher levels in the present day NFL. Back in the day their were people like Bob Hays that did both.

Dude I am not in responding to you anymore.
because you are not American and trying to tell American about American culture. You sound nuts

the fact is blacks are some of the most dominant athletes in sports. The best boxer is black, the best basketball player is black, the best baseball player is black. Golf tiger woods is probably top 3. Soccer its also black Pele ( has African blood), track and field is black.

Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights.

Listen do you know how big America is ? I can go to Philadelphia right now and ask 10 random people who Shohei Ohtani they wouldn't know. I could go to any major city and ask them again and nobody would know. I dont even really know who he is but I follow the Yankess. I bet more people know Derek Jeter ( who's half black) or Judge ( who is half black) than Shohei Ohtani.

Baseball is no longer Americans popular sport it hasnt been since the 50s, 60s and 70s thats also when black Americans played baseball the most. America no matter how racist views black athletes superior and they are marketed the most. They are in commercials and movies. Shohei Ohtani will never be in a major tv commercial or be in Hollywood movies. Americans like their sports played by Americans!! Alot of older white people stopped watching baseball due to all the Hispanics and thats a fact.

baseball and basketball are becoming more global and are also becoming less popular than before.

The Asian player is dominating a league without Black Americans just like Usyk and Klitschkos thats no different than Babe Ruth who played behind the color line or those old white heavyweight champions. Once Black's came in it was different lol.

When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol.

Basketball talent wise for Americans are on the decline. I actually sit and watch American high school games. You dont because you are not American! I watch college basketball. You probably dont. I am from CT. We have one of the best women's and men's college basketball program in the COUNTRY. You not talking to me about no damn basketball. America is not putting out a good product. It has nothing to do with it being rigged. They changed the rules to allow a more offensive style of play and indirectly it ruin the game for people in my generation. Once again getting rid of the hand check and low post play and adding the euro step ruined basketball imo and the numbers show it.

I have no issues with people from the former Yugoslavia. They can play basketball but let's keep it buck in the 90s they couldn't go in the paint they were to weak! They made their careers doing mid range jumpers. Now basketball is nothing but up tempo 3 pointers.

We can agree to disagree since you are not American eve. Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers. Usyk and Klitschkos never went against an elite black heavyweight.

Imo the last great American was Ridd1ck bowe some will say tyson but i think hes a fraud.

No need to reply if you cant answer this. 20 years after the creation of the first superbowl Did America produce an elite heavyweight regardless of race ?

Yes or No ?

Yes.

Now, some of the stuff you say strikes me as someone who needs validation by proxy.You need a race check before you can process talent.

But then again, many sports fans live vicariously through their favorite athletes.
What's interesting in your case, is that you seem to fetishize “dominance,” but only when it confirms your template. You remind me of a guy who doesn’t admire greatness...he requires it. Because without it, his entire framework for self-worth collapses. I don't pretend it's the case, that's just a general vibe i'm getting from your posts.

But i digress..

Let’s actually take what you said at face value:

Quote:
"Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights."

But that logic cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

If the Klitschkos and Usyk only rose because “Black elites” weren’t around…
Then what do we say about the golden era you're nostalgic for? When black american boxers were stacking wins against american bred, "Great White Hopes" (That term literally had to be invented to market mediocre white challengers to the public.). It was fun while it lasted until a different brand of white boys showed up...It actually begs the question, wtf is wrong with white Americans ? ...

In fact, if you look closely, the group that’s never really shown up in heavyweight boxing is white Americans.
Go through the rankings right now:
Michael Hunter is the only American remotely close to the top 10 — and he's Black.

But the first white American name you’ll find? John Cantrell at #84. The more things change the more they stay the same right ? If we strip out all the international flags of the HW rankings, and just look at America, Black heavyweights are still dominating their white counterparts like they did in the old days. (with a few latinos here and there).

Ok so, you said: “I don’t even really know who Ohtani is.”

Well, obviously not if you dismiss anything outside the american black sports pantheon, it's like never looking outside your bubble isn't it? The world moved forward. You just stayed in the nostalgia section like Blockbuster never closed.

[ONOFF]

You said: “You’re not American so you can’t talk about American sports.”

Oh, so I need a passport to have an opinion now? By that logic, you can’t talk about the Klitschkos, Ohtani, or Pele either so cong****, you’ve just canceled 90% of your own argument.

You also say: "Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers."

Roy also tried to rap. Let’s not treat his quotes like they came from Aristotle. Furthermore, Mayweather posted videos of Jones being stopped in fights to mock him. So there's obviously some resentment there. It's clear, he doesn't like him at all.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIeINrcdXQo


You said: "When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol."

Yeah, Jesse shattered racial myths with his speed., Ohtani is shattering yours with his bat..Jokić is redefining the game with his IQ and passing vision.
They’re not winning because of gatekeeping, they're winning through competition. That’s what greatness looks like.

You said: “The NBA got worse when it got more global.”

So when Dirk beat the Heat Big 3 in 2011 (LeBron, Wade & Bosh) ,did the game get worse? How about when Jokić put up 30-20-10 in the Finals? You miss the old American style? That’s fine. But nostalgia isn’t analysis.

You said: “Most people in Philly don’t even know who Shohei Ohtani is.”

And ? Most people in Philly think cheese is a food group. And Philly is not the rest of the world, just a tiny part of it. During Ohtani’s historic 50–50 season, games he played in averaged a 20% higher viewership than the league average, and the 2023 All-Star Game ratings were up 15% year-over-year, largely due to his participation. Games featuring Ohtani draw about a 30% increase in advertising revenue for Asian and U.S. broadcasts. here:
https://en.as.com/mlb/how-has-shohei...b-tv-ratings-n

PS: About Pele. His dominance came in a league and era where the overall competition was not as strong or world-class as today. That being said, he was truly ahead of his time, but it seems quite clear that you don't know a lot about this sport or else you wouldn't have just mentioned his name. (The likes of Messi, Maradona, Maldini, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Cristiano Ronaldo are just as important, this is especially true for Messi and Ronaldo. As a matter of fact, the "goat" is Messi at this point.)

[Jerzdevil21]

Holyfield was inconsistent and we never know because he hasn’t faced a fighter like Usyk. He went the distance with an ancient Foreman who stood right in front of him.

[MalevolentBite]

Yes.

Now, some of the stuff you say strikes me as someone who needs validation by proxy.You need a race check before you can process talent.

But then again, many sports fans live vicariously through their favorite athletes.
What's interesting in your case, is that you seem to fetishize “dominance,” but only when it confirms your template. You remind me of a guy who doesn’t admire greatness...he requires it. Because without it, his entire framework for self-worth collapses. I don't pretend it's the case, that's just a general vibe i'm getting from your posts.

But i digress..

Let’s actually take what you said at face value:

Quote:
"Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights."

But that logic cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

If the Klitschkos and Usyk only rose because “Black elites” weren’t around…
Then what do we say about the golden era you're nostalgic for? When black american boxers were stacking wins against american bred, "Great White Hopes" (That term literally had to be invented to market mediocre white challengers to the public.). It was fun while it lasted until a different brand of white boys showed up...It actually begs the question, wtf is wrong with white Americans ? ...

In fact, if you look closely, the group that’s never really shown up in heavyweight boxing is white Americans.
Go through the rankings right now:
Michael Hunter is the only American remotely close to the top 10 — and he's Black.

But the first white American name you’ll find? John Cantrell at #84. The more things change the more they stay the same right ? If we strip out all the international flags of the HW rankings, and just look at America, Black heavyweights are still dominating their white counterparts like they did in the old days. (with a few latinos here and there).

Ok so, you said: “I don’t even really know who Ohtani is.”

Well, obviously not if you dismiss anything outside the american black sports pantheon, it's like never looking outside your bubble isn't it? The world moved forward. You just stayed in the nostalgia section like Blockbuster never closed.

Fair analysis. If we want to go through a philosophical route we can. In America identity politics runs everything and racial identity is one thing that holds America back but its so ingrained with the culture we are not going to shake it.

I honestly dont know whats wrong with white Americans and sports compared to their European counterparts. I have a theory but I dont want to turn this into eugenics and other hypothetical things but I can definitely say white Americans are lacking behind in most sports and maybe even in education? I don't want to sound ignorant so I will say thats just my opinion.

Thats fair for the last part, culturally baseball wasnt pushed in my community growing up, it was more basketball but I did grow to learn to like baseball and I was lucky enough to live near the New York Yankees. So I am a below average baseball fan and most people I run into are also below average fans. I still do watch some games and I do attend live games. I enjoy and watch all nationalities who come to the US to play baseball like Ichiro Suzuki and Daisuke Matsuzak. I just dont know this new guy. To be being completely honest only hard core baseball fans would know who Ichiro is.

If you takw blacks out of the equation for alot of things America would be less interesting and honestly not a entertainment juggernaut. You remove Micheal Jackson, James Brown, Prince , Rock n Roll ( blacks created), Rap, Jazz, R&B, Funk etc. The world would be a boring place.

I am honestly not hating on uysk or the Klitschkos. I enjoy them as a fan. I think they can compete with any heavyweights in most eras but if I had to critique them it would be there wasnt any elite american heavyweights to challenge them to showcase their skills but thats not their fault.

Also I am not hating on European or non American basketball players. I enjoy Toni Kukuc, Peja Stojaković, Vlade Divac and many more. I really like Manu.

I just dont like how basketball is played now in America and how the NBA is ran but Europeans came a long way and I would love for Europe to have their own nba team or a tournament with Europeans and nba teams. FIBA rules since FIBA rules are better. Longer 3 point line though.