HOLYFIELD beats Usyk at Cruiser or HW.

[MalevolentBite]

I get the sense that you have the brain capacity of a child. Were you held back in school? You make statements, they get addressed or challenged and you go off on a irrelevant tangent.

No Holyfield wasn’t prime when he fought Byrd. He was old, like YOU said.

Meaning, being old vs Byrd, a year later he was even older. And thus, by default, NOT a top fighter at that time.

It’s an extremely fucking simple concept. The moment you admitted that Holyfield was old vs Byrd, your entire previous argument imploded.

Anyone who gets on a level of a child is also childish in nature. No wonder you dont get any play. You spend your time making up false narratives. You need to log off of boxingscene and buy one of those blow up dolls. I understand its probably shameful but being an online troll who get cant play is not healthy for your mental health. Dan. I really want you to be happy. Try finding a coupon online for a blow up doll and enjoy it you really need it.

A top fighter is a ranked fighter. We been over this. Holyfield was ranked by two sanctioning bodies and also the ring in the toney fight. He was ranked by the IBF in the byrd fight. He took the fights for money and lost in each one due to him being old but he was still considered to be a top fighter based on the ranking system I have no control over the ranking system. However if you want to say his ranking has no validity then thats an argument towards whether or not should we put merit in boxing rankings which would be a interesting conversation to explore. In my opinion if you ranked you are a top fighter wether I agree with the ranking or not.

You been on here since 2009 with over 40k post.

And stop responding to my messages since its childish. Now if you respond again. Then I know you dont even agree with your low level insults of me lol.

Get that blow up doll.

[megas30]

This is a non-competition. Holyfield was too tough and too skill for Usyk.

[ONOFF]

Most track and field athletes in high school are or dual sport athletes. I played football in the fall and track in the spring. Thats always been the case theres alot of track and field players that play other sports. The ones who go to the olympics aren't big enough and strong enough to compete at the higher levels in the present day NFL. Back in the day their were people like Bob Hays that did both.

Dude I am not in responding to you anymore.
because you are not American and trying to tell American about American culture. You sound nuts

the fact is blacks are some of the most dominant athletes in sports. The best boxer is black, the best basketball player is black, the best baseball player is black. Golf tiger woods is probably top 3. Soccer its also black Pele ( has African blood), track and field is black.

Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights.

Listen do you know how big America is ? I can go to Philadelphia right now and ask 10 random people who Shohei Ohtani they wouldn't know. I could go to any major city and ask them again and nobody would know. I dont even really know who he is but I follow the Yankess. I bet more people know Derek Jeter ( who's half black) or Judge ( who is half black) than Shohei Ohtani.

Baseball is no longer Americans popular sport it hasnt been since the 50s, 60s and 70s thats also when black Americans played baseball the most. America no matter how racist views black athletes superior and they are marketed the most. They are in commercials and movies. Shohei Ohtani will never be in a major tv commercial or be in Hollywood movies. Americans like their sports played by Americans!! Alot of older white people stopped watching baseball due to all the Hispanics and thats a fact.

baseball and basketball are becoming more global and are also becoming less popular than before.

The Asian player is dominating a league without Black Americans just like Usyk and Klitschkos thats no different than Babe Ruth who played behind the color line or those old white heavyweight champions. Once Black's came in it was different lol.

When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol.

Basketball talent wise for Americans are on the decline. I actually sit and watch American high school games. You dont because you are not American! I watch college basketball. You probably dont. I am from CT. We have one of the best women's and men's college basketball program in the COUNTRY. You not talking to me about no damn basketball. America is not putting out a good product. It has nothing to do with it being rigged. They changed the rules to allow a more offensive style of play and indirectly it ruin the game for people in my generation. Once again getting rid of the hand check and low post play and adding the euro step ruined basketball imo and the numbers show it.

I have no issues with people from the former Yugoslavia. They can play basketball but let's keep it buck in the 90s they couldn't go in the paint they were to weak! They made their careers doing mid range jumpers. Now basketball is nothing but up tempo 3 pointers.

We can agree to disagree since you are not American eve. Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers. Usyk and Klitschkos never went against an elite black heavyweight.

Imo the last great American was Ridd1ck bowe some will say tyson but i think hes a fraud.

No need to reply if you cant answer this. 20 years after the creation of the first superbowl Did America produce an elite heavyweight regardless of race ?

Yes or No ?

Yes.

Now, some of the stuff you say strikes me as someone who needs validation by proxy.You need a race check before you can process talent.

But then again, many sports fans live vicariously through their favorite athletes.
What's interesting in your case, is that you seem to fetishize “dominance,” but only when it confirms your template. You remind me of a guy who doesn’t admire greatness...he requires it. Because without it, his entire framework for self-worth collapses. I don't pretend it's the case, that's just a general vibe i'm getting from your posts.

But i digress..

Let’s actually take what you said at face value:

Quote:
"Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights."

But that logic cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

If the Klitschkos and Usyk only rose because “Black elites” weren’t around…
Then what do we say about the golden era you're nostalgic for? When black american boxers were stacking wins against american bred, "Great White Hopes" (That term literally had to be invented to market mediocre white challengers to the public.). It was fun while it lasted until a different brand of white boys showed up...It actually begs the question, wtf is wrong with white Americans ? ...

In fact, if you look closely, the group that’s never really shown up in heavyweight boxing is white Americans.
Go through the rankings right now:
Michael Hunter is the only American remotely close to the top 10 — and he's Black.

But the first white American name you’ll find? John Cantrell at #84. The more things change the more they stay the same right ? If we strip out all the international flags of the HW rankings, and just look at America, Black heavyweights are still dominating their white counterparts like they did in the old days. (with a few latinos here and there).

Ok so, you said: “I don’t even really know who Ohtani is.”

Well, obviously not if you dismiss anything outside the american black sports pantheon, it's like never looking outside your bubble isn't it? The world moved forward. You just stayed in the nostalgia section like Blockbuster never closed.

[ONOFF]

You said: “You’re not American so you can’t talk about American sports.”

Oh, so I need a passport to have an opinion now? By that logic, you can’t talk about the Klitschkos, Ohtani, or Pele either so cong****, you’ve just canceled 90% of your own argument.

You also say: "Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers."

Roy also tried to rap. Let’s not treat his quotes like they came from Aristotle. Furthermore, Mayweather posted videos of Jones being stopped in fights to mock him. So there's obviously some resentment there. It's clear, he doesn't like him at all.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIeINrcdXQo


You said: "When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol."

Yeah, Jesse shattered racial myths with his speed., Ohtani is shattering yours with his bat..Jokić is redefining the game with his IQ and passing vision.
They’re not winning because of gatekeeping, they're winning through competition. That’s what greatness looks like.

You said: “The NBA got worse when it got more global.”

So when Dirk beat the Heat Big 3 in 2011 (LeBron, Wade & Bosh) ,did the game get worse? How about when Jokić put up 30-20-10 in the Finals? You miss the old American style? That’s fine. But nostalgia isn’t analysis.

You said: “Most people in Philly don’t even know who Shohei Ohtani is.”

And ? Most people in Philly think cheese is a food group. And Philly is not the rest of the world, just a tiny part of it. During Ohtani’s historic 50–50 season, games he played in averaged a 20% higher viewership than the league average, and the 2023 All-Star Game ratings were up 15% year-over-year, largely due to his participation. Games featuring Ohtani draw about a 30% increase in advertising revenue for Asian and U.S. broadcasts. here:
https://en.as.com/mlb/how-has-shohei...b-tv-ratings-n

PS: About Pele. His dominance came in a league and era where the overall competition was not as strong or world-class as today. That being said, he was truly ahead of his time, but it seems quite clear that you don't know a lot about this sport or else you wouldn't have just mentioned his name. (The likes of Messi, Maradona, Maldini, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Cristiano Ronaldo are just as important, this is especially true for Messi and Ronaldo. As a matter of fact, the "goat" is Messi at this point.)

[Jerzdevil21]

Holyfield was inconsistent and we never know because he hasn’t faced a fighter like Usyk. He went the distance with an ancient Foreman who stood right in front of him.

[MalevolentBite]

Yes.

Now, some of the stuff you say strikes me as someone who needs validation by proxy.You need a race check before you can process talent.

But then again, many sports fans live vicariously through their favorite athletes.
What's interesting in your case, is that you seem to fetishize “dominance,” but only when it confirms your template. You remind me of a guy who doesn’t admire greatness...he requires it. Because without it, his entire framework for self-worth collapses. I don't pretend it's the case, that's just a general vibe i'm getting from your posts.

But i digress..

Let’s actually take what you said at face value:

Quote:
"Its all black. Black and black. The Klitschkos dominanted when there was no black American elite heavyweights. Usyk dominated when there was no elite black heavyweights."

But that logic cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

If the Klitschkos and Usyk only rose because “Black elites” weren’t around…
Then what do we say about the golden era you're nostalgic for? When black american boxers were stacking wins against american bred, "Great White Hopes" (That term literally had to be invented to market mediocre white challengers to the public.). It was fun while it lasted until a different brand of white boys showed up...It actually begs the question, wtf is wrong with white Americans ? ...

In fact, if you look closely, the group that’s never really shown up in heavyweight boxing is white Americans.
Go through the rankings right now:
Michael Hunter is the only American remotely close to the top 10 — and he's Black.

But the first white American name you’ll find? John Cantrell at #84. The more things change the more they stay the same right ? If we strip out all the international flags of the HW rankings, and just look at America, Black heavyweights are still dominating their white counterparts like they did in the old days. (with a few latinos here and there).

Ok so, you said: “I don’t even really know who Ohtani is.”

Well, obviously not if you dismiss anything outside the american black sports pantheon, it's like never looking outside your bubble isn't it? The world moved forward. You just stayed in the nostalgia section like Blockbuster never closed.

Fair analysis. If we want to go through a philosophical route we can. In America identity politics runs everything and racial identity is one thing that holds America back but its so ingrained with the culture we are not going to shake it.

I honestly dont know whats wrong with white Americans and sports compared to their European counterparts. I have a theory but I dont want to turn this into eugenics and other hypothetical things but I can definitely say white Americans are lacking behind in most sports and maybe even in education? I don't want to sound ignorant so I will say thats just my opinion.

Thats fair for the last part, culturally baseball wasnt pushed in my community growing up, it was more basketball but I did grow to learn to like baseball and I was lucky enough to live near the New York Yankees. So I am a below average baseball fan and most people I run into are also below average fans. I still do watch some games and I do attend live games. I enjoy and watch all nationalities who come to the US to play baseball like Ichiro Suzuki and Daisuke Matsuzak. I just dont know this new guy. To be being completely honest only hard core baseball fans would know who Ichiro is.

If you takw blacks out of the equation for alot of things America would be less interesting and honestly not a entertainment juggernaut. You remove Micheal Jackson, James Brown, Prince , Rock n Roll ( blacks created), Rap, Jazz, R&B, Funk etc. The world would be a boring place.

I am honestly not hating on uysk or the Klitschkos. I enjoy them as a fan. I think they can compete with any heavyweights in most eras but if I had to critique them it would be there wasnt any elite american heavyweights to challenge them to showcase their skills but thats not their fault.

Also I am not hating on European or non American basketball players. I enjoy Toni Kukuc, Peja Stojaković, Vlade Divac and many more. I really like Manu.

I just dont like how basketball is played now in America and how the NBA is ran but Europeans came a long way and I would love for Europe to have their own nba team or a tournament with Europeans and nba teams. FIBA rules since FIBA rules are better. Longer 3 point line though.

[MalevolentBite]

You said: “You’re not American so you can’t talk about American sports.”

Oh, so I need a passport to have an opinion now? By that logic, you can’t talk about the Klitschkos, Ohtani, or Pele either so cong****, you’ve just canceled 90% of your own argument.

You also say: "Roy took a dig at Mayweather saying he isnt great because he didn't face any black boxers. Why would Roy say this ? Because he views blacks as the best boxers."

Roy also tried to rap. Let’s not treat his quotes like they came from Aristotle. Furthermore, Mayweather posted videos of Jones being stopped in fights to mock him. So there's obviously some resentment there. It's clear, he doesn't like him at all.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIeINrcdXQo


You said: "When Jesse owens went to Germany, what happened? Even Hitler knew whites couldn't beat no negro. Thats why Racist America brought Jesse they knew aint nobody beating no black man in a 100m. Damn sure no European lol."

Yeah, Jesse shattered racial myths with his speed., Ohtani is shattering yours with his bat..Jokić is redefining the game with his IQ and passing vision.
They’re not winning because of gatekeeping, they're winning through competition. That’s what greatness looks like.

You said: “The NBA got worse when it got more global.”

So when Dirk beat the Heat Big 3 in 2011 (LeBron, Wade & Bosh) ,did the game get worse? How about when Jokić put up 30-20-10 in the Finals? You miss the old American style? That’s fine. But nostalgia isn’t analysis.

You said: “Most people in Philly don’t even know who Shohei Ohtani is.”

And ? Most people in Philly think cheese is a food group. And Philly is not the rest of the world, just a tiny part of it. During Ohtani’s historic 50–50 season, games he played in averaged a 20% higher viewership than the league average, and the 2023 All-Star Game ratings were up 15% year-over-year, largely due to his participation. Games featuring Ohtani draw about a 30% increase in advertising revenue for Asian and U.S. broadcasts. here:
https://en.as.com/mlb/how-has-shohei...b-tv-ratings-n

PS: About Pele. His dominance came in a league and era where the overall competition was not as strong or world-class as today. That being said, he was truly ahead of his time, but it seems quite clear that you don't know a lot about this sport or else you wouldn't have just mentioned his name. (The likes of Messi, Maradona, Maldini, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Cruyff, Cristiano Ronaldo are just as important, this is especially true for Messi and Ronaldo. As a matter of fact, the "goat" is Messi at this point.)

I cant speak on their culture because I am not European. I would have to default to you or another European.

You attacked my statement about American culture when I told you that american boxing for black heavyweights is dead becauseof the NFL. Which is 100% American cultural influence that has no outside force. Its all internal. Thats like me talking about the Euro league and I am American. I was being honest. You kinda made it seemed like it was a defending moment in history that Europeans are up and Americans are down, you are right but it wasn't because Europeans were better its because Americans stopped trying but its not a jab at usyk or the Klitschkos that would be disrespectful to their hard work and achievements.

I like Dirk i would never disrespect Dirk. He earned that championship.

I would say when basketball became global it started to focus on money more than actually keeping the games more intense and fundamental.. When money gets involved you start seeing refs allow certain players to get away with things (LeBron), you cant play hard defense and players start to become their own coaches and coaches lost alot of their importance. An NBA coach really have no power anymore. The star player will call plays and demand trades. They will also decide to shoot 30 threes a game and you cant even bench them. Thats when I stopped watching. High school basketball is now a local club. The teams are already hand picked before tri outs and these young kids just want to look cool and flashy. Nobody wants to use the backboard at all anymore. No low post play, centers are not even centers anymore and you got shooting guards cos playing as point guards. Back in the day a point guard would never average 20ppg. The point guard would never take that many shots. They were the floor general but now that change. Now you got 6'10 swing forwards bringing up the ball ans sht.

America has a big Asian market. Yao Ming did the same. That doesn't mean they actually transcended into American Culture. The biggest sport stars in America are NBA and NFL players. Baseball gets the most money.

However theres always exceptions to the rule like Ryan Garcia.

I agree with you Pele didn't have the same competition as Messi, Rolando and etc. You are correct. I will give you that.

Soccer being so global the competition is probably the hardest. So many leagues and each world cup is intense.

Let's Go France !!! Thats who I root for each world cup. Lol.

Excuse any typos. I am on the mobile phone. .

[Zelda]

Usyk defeated all the top heavyweights from various promotions.

They aren't the quality we had in the 90s. None of these guys would make it to the top 5 in the 90s, and some not even in the top 8. Usyk ain't fought a fighter at the level of Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Rid**** Bowe, etc. in HW.

[ONOFF]

They aren't the quality we had in the 90s. None of these guys would make it to the top 5 in the 90s, and some not even in the top 8. Usyk ain't fought a fighter at the level of Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Rid**** Bowe, etc. in HW.

Yeah, well… at 45, mummy Foreman became champion in the ’90s..not due to extraordinary boxing, but because the decade itself was overrated. What was presented as a golden era was, in reality, a vacuum, one missing an entire generation of Eastern European and Soviet-trained fighters who were barred from competing professionally. The ’90s were a carefully packaged version of heavyweight boxing, inflated by American hype.

None of the guys you mentioned were unbeatable or exceptional talents. Go ahead, sh@t on the most recent eras all you want, but you're lying to yourself if you think other eras were exceptional.

Bowe couldn’t handle a one-dimensional, mentally fragile Golota. Tyson was destroyed by Buster Douglas, wobbled against Frank Bruno, and padded his record with very poor competition (the ’80s were just as overrated). Despite his reputation and mythic status, Tyson’s record is underwhelming when stripped of the media fog. Most of his hyped victories came against opponents who were either past their prime or never elite to begin with, while his losses came against the few true competitors he faced..Holyfield and Lennox. The default excuse? He “wasn’t in his prime anymore.” Which is true. ..but excuses don’t erase the Douglas fight, or the fact he struggled against the likes of James Tillis and Bonecrusher Smith.

Yes, styles make fights. But it’s hard to ignore the reality when so many fans speak of these past champions as if they were untouchable deities of the sport.

The ’90s weren’t a golden era. Or maybe they were… but only if you were an American fan, clinging to a closed bubble, while the iron curtain kept Soviet-trained fighters out, American fans got to live in a fantasy where Bowe, Michael Bentt, Mike Tyson, Tommy Morrison, Bruce Seldon and Holyfield (to name a few), were kings of the universe, protected by absence.

The “golden era” was golden for U.S. networks, golden for the myth-making machine that thrives on isolation. And by the time the doors opened, the illusion was exposed...It was over.

Tua had a great chin and great KO power for sure, it's undeniable... But that’s about it. He was too small, one-dimensional, with sluggish and limited footwork. His movement around the ring was slow, and it showed against skilled, bigger opponents who could exploit his lack of mobility and reach. We’ve all seen his devastating KO victories against Moorer and Ruiz, but again… John Ruiz and Moorer were both quite overrated. The fact that Moorer, of all people (who had a very limited and insignificant amateur career, by the way), became a three-time heavyweight champion during the ’90s tells you everything you need to know about this era. The only counterargument is his controversial decision victory against Holyfield, I guess.


All eras can be trashed. Whether we're talking about Ali's era , or Marciano's , Lennox, Klitschko, Joe Louis.... All had their pros and cons. Yet so many of you pretend that it isn't the case and the cope is always the same. (i.e. They're all in the NBA or NFL).