The lineal HW title. A fart in the wind.

[Toffee]

There are no hard rules on lineal. At any point in time there might be fighters with a claim to the lineage and they're supposed to sort it out in the ring until a true champion is established.

I believe Klitschko was lineal champion.
Therefore I believe Fury took that status by beating him.
From the point that Fury was banned and retired there are claims and there are doubts.

• Fury had a claim that it continued through his retirement.
• Joshua had a claim to a new lineage by beating Klitschko
• Fury then had a further claim by beating Wilder
• Usyk had a claim by beating Joshua either as consensus top two or through Joshua's lineage
• Then it all wrapped up when the consensus top two fought and Usyk established himself as lineal champion

It doesn't really matter what anyone believes from the above. The division got sorted and Usyk is the true lineal champion now.

Personally I don't care how this lineage was established, but I'm prepared to accept it being vacant from Fury's first retirement and then re-established from Usyk beating Fury. Everything in between had doubt.

[famicommander]

There are no hard rules on lineal. At any point in time there might be fighters with a claim to the lineage and they're supposed to sort it out in the ring until a true champion is established.

I believe Klitschko was lineal champion.
Therefore I believe Fury took that status by beating him.
From the point that Fury was banned and retired there are claims and there are doubts.

• Fury had a claim that it continued through his retirement.
• Joshua had a claim to a new lineage by beating Klitschko
• Fury then had a further claim by beating Wilder
• Usyk had a claim by beating Joshua either as consensus top two or through Joshua's lineage
• Then it all wrapped up when the consensus top two fought and Usyk established himself as lineal champion

It doesn't really matter what anyone believes from the above. The division got sorted and Usyk is the true lineal champion now.

Personally I don't care how this lineage was established, but I'm prepared to accept it being vacant from Fury's first retirement and then re-established from Usyk beating Fury. Everything in between had doubt.

Joshua vs Klitschko could not possibly be a lineal fight. Wlad was coming off a loss and hadn't fought in 18 months, and at that point both Wilder and Parker were undefeated and highly ranked world titlists.

[Toffee]

Joshua vs Klitschko could not possibly be a lineal fight. Wlad was coming off a loss and hadn't fought in 18 months, and at that point both Wilder and Parker were undefeated and highly ranked world titlists.

"Coming off a loss" - those words get presented as though they're some kind of definitive decider. Boxers lose sometimes. Wlad was a very clear #1 before the defeat to Fury. He remained #2 to Fury afterwards until Fury retired.

He didn't fight for 18 months but that wasn't exactly straight inactivity or contemplation of retirement. He was in camp for a #1 v #2 fight untill Fury finally dropped away in retirement/disgrace. Then they made the fight against the highest ranked guy possible - Joshua. They were clearly the two best at that time. For what it's worth, TBRB ranked Wlad at #2 to Joshua's #1 immediately after they fought.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The point is that there were multiple claims to the lineage because no-one had established their claim beyond any doubt. Until Usyk beat Fury. Prior to that is one of those grey areas that have existed many times in the history of boxing, only to be cleared up by a single champion. People might rewrite that history and claim precedents but none exist and there's no-one to adjudicate them. We all know what the man looks like once he's become the man.

To be honest, it was Fury and ESPN's marketing that even made this an issue. He had no right to claim that status, and even less right to devalue it with the fights he apparently defended it in. If his claims were true then the lineal championship was worthless.

He claims to be a boxing historian but he's actually exactly what he appears to be - a gypsy conman.

[NihonJim]

"Coming off a loss" - those words get presented as though they're some kind of definitive decider. Boxers lose sometimes. Wlad was a very clear #1 before the defeat to Fury. He remained #2 to Fury afterwards until Fury retired.

He didn't fight for 18 months but that wasn't exactly straight inactivity or contemplation of retirement. He was in camp for a #1 v #2 fight untill Fury finally dropped away in retirement/disgrace. Then they made the fight against the highest ranked guy possible - Joshua. They were clearly the two best at that time. For what it's worth, TBRB ranked Wlad at #2 to Joshua's #1 immediately after they fought.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The point is that there were multiple claims to the lineage because no-one had established their claim beyond any doubt. Until Usyk beat Fury. Prior to that is one of those grey areas that have existed many times in the history of boxing, only to be cleared up by a single champion. People might rewrite that history and claim precedents but none exist and there's no-one to adjudicate them. We all know what the man looks like once he's become the man.

To be honest, it was Fury and ESPN's marketing that even made this an issue. He had no right to claim that status, and even less right to devalue it with the fights he apparently defended it in. If his claims were true then the lineal championship was worthless.

He claims to be a boxing historian but he's actually exactly what he appears to be - a gypsy conman.

Fury didn't claim the status he won the status by beating Wlad.

The only thing in question is was Wlad vs Chagaev back in 09 or whenever it was a legitimate fight to establish a new lineage.

It was almost universally recognized as so by boxing fans and media, and very few had any issues with it.

It only became an issue 15 years later when some posters online wanted a way to denigrate Fury.

I'm absolutely CERTAIN there will be posters trying to claim fury was never lineal but Usyk is

[famicommander]

Fury didn't claim the status he won the status by beating Wlad.

The only thing in question is was Wlad vs Chagaev back in 09 or whenever it was a legitimate fight to establish a new lineage.

It was almost universally recognized as so by boxing fans and media, and very few had any issues with it.

It only became an issue 15 years later when some posters online wanted a way to denigrate Fury.

I'm absolutely CERTAIN there will be posters trying to claim fury was never lineal but Usyk is

Some people think Wlad become lineal from the Chagaev win, some thought he already had it from the Ibragimov win, and some like the TBRB held out until the Povetkin win. But everyone with at least half a functioning brain agrees that he was the lineal champion by the time he fought Fury.

[Toffee]

Fury didn't claim the status he won the status by beating Wlad.

The only thing in question is was Wlad vs Chagaev back in 09 or whenever it was a legitimate fight to establish a new lineage.

It was almost universally recognized as so by boxing fans and media, and very few had any issues with it.

It only became an issue 15 years later when some posters online wanted a way to denigrate Fury.

I'm absolutely CERTAIN there will be posters trying to claim fury was never lineal but Usyk is

I have no issue with Wlad's claim.

Furry claimed the status when he returned from retirement and drug related bans. He used it as a marketing tool because he didn't have a title. Again, if lineal is worth anything, then surely it doesn't continue through drugs bans and retirements.

Fury has tried to rewrite that history as a mental health break. No, he got done for Nandrolone and it's dodgy as hell that his fight with Klitschko wasn't written off. He should have been banned for that fight, not retrospectively banned for one night against Hammer and then later after his title win.

In any case. Usyk restored order. Everything from Klitschko to Usyk is grey.

[NihonJim]

I have no issue with Wlad's claim.

Furry claimed the status when he returned from retirement and drug related bans. He used it as a marketing tool because he didn't have a title. Again, if lineal is worth anything, then surely it doesn't continue through drugs bans and retirements.

Fury has tried to rewrite that history as a mental health break. No, he got done for Nandrolone and it's dodgy as hell that his fight with Klitschko wasn't written off. He should have been banned for that fight, not retrospectively banned for one night against Hammer and then later after his title win.

In any case. Usyk restored order. Everything from Klitschko to Usyk is grey.

It's not dodgy at all, he didn't test positive for the Wlad fight.

What's dodgy is how the results from the Hamer fight only became an Issue a year later once Fury gained a public platform and started talking out about the J's

[Toffee]

It's not dodgy at all, he didn't test positive for the Wlad fight.

What's dodgy is how the results from the Hamer fight only became an Issue a year later once Fury gained a public platform and started talking out about the J's

He tested positive for the Hammer fight which was prior to Wlad.

When he got penalised it was for the Hammer fight, then open road, then again after the Klitschko fight.

The Wlad fight should never have happened. And it should have been struck from his record when it was confirmed he was a drugs cheat and retrospectively banned for two years.

Just think, there's a parallel universe where he rightly never won a title and probably never came back. He was a legal battle away from total irrelevance.

[kafkod]

You are not alone in being confused my friend. The Title Sanctioning Bodies have worked diligently since the mid 1970's to confound you, and in so doing establish their meaning, and cause for existence, with high******* the flagship weight class as their most stubborn objective.

This is due to THAT particular division alone having a crystal clear liniage.


See if this helps:

Each of the 9 incorporated boxing sanctioning bodies (5 currently being "acknowledged" in the Media/Blogger community in English speaking countries); are notorious and sometimes even felonious; and perfectly irrelevant at heavyweight, where the title liniage is universally acknowledged and uncontested amongst boxing's historians.

The so-called "world title sanctioning body" companies can sell their belts to whatever promotional companies they please, and those belts can land around the waist of any contender, fringe contender or non-contender in the world (as they frequently do), with no effect on the Heavyweight Championship of the World.

The WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, etc, are strictly self-appointed, and mean little at the Heavyweight/Open division.


You want the one real title? Beat Usyk, or wait for him to retire.

Regarding the latter choice:

THE Historical Precedent states that, should Usyk came back after a retirement announcement, he retains the linear claim for up to 48 months shouldhe return to action, but only if he fights one of the top 2 acknowledged new title claimants on the scene, within 3 fights of his return; and wins, will he retain the title and be recognized as the champion in recess for the duration of his absence; thus nullifying any conflicting title claims made during that period for the linial title (Fury). However, should he lose the fight against the new title claimant, his reign as champion will be regarded as having concluded upon his initial retirement announcement (Louis, Ali, Ali 2). Should the sitting champion retire and remain retired for greater than 48 months before announcing and fulfilling a return to the ring, his claim to the title will no longer be valid, and in a title bout arranged during a return to action, he will be listed as the challenger for the title he once held (Jeffries).


Aborted retirements while holding the crown - Duration of retirements from official announcement to comeback fight:

Jeffries.......05/05 - 07/10....62 months
Louis...........03/49 - 09/50....18 months
Ali................04/67 - 10/70....42 months
Ali 2.............07/79 - 10/80....15 months
Fury.............10/16 - 06/18....20 months


Tunney, Marciano and Lewis are the only modern era heavyweight champions to have successfully retired as champion and not come back. Each of these had relinquished any claim as champion, therefore, at the point of their retirement.


In each of the three instances of that, the new champion in the historic line was established by a protracted process in which ALL bonified contenders were sorted by results in the ring, leading to a reestablished world champion who solitified that claim by attrition through either continued success or losing to a better challenger to replace him, ensuring that the best in the world became champion only through actions in the ring; beyond the corruption of opinion or agenda.

None of those events were challenged by the public, the press or the industry itself; and each employed a universally accepted means by which title continuity was irrefutably mended to the satisfaction of all.

If you don't buy into this, as being both a logical and the one true process for the establishment of determining the world heavyweight boxing champion, I cannot assist you, and I zealously encourage you to follow any path you like!

Hopefully, that would not be to place your trust in the hand of the aforementioned sanctioning body companies; who presently list, as legitimate contenders for their "titles", the likes of:


IBF
13. Peter Kadiru (KOd in first climb up by 23-11 Marcos Antonio Aum
The WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, etc, are strictly self-appointed, and mean little at the Heavyweight/Open division.
ada).

WBA
9. Dainier Pero (The younger brother of Lenier).

14.Yoandy Toirac (Just 3-0 but he's matching tough).

WBO
14. Vladyslav Sirenko (Just dropped a nod to Solomon Dacres)

15. Johnny Fisher (Lost rematch to David Allen)

"where the title liniage is universally acknowledged and uncontested amongst boxing's historians"

The information posted in this thread says otherwise.



"The WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, etc, are strictly self-appointed, and mean little at the Heavyweight/Open division."

That is obviously nonsense and will remain nonsense, no matter how many times you say it.

[Willow The Wisp]

"Coming off a loss" - those words get presented as though they're some kind of definitive decider. Boxers lose sometimes. Wlad was a very clear #1 before the defeat to Fury. He remained #2 to Fury afterwards until Fury retired.

He didn't fight for 18 months but that wasn't exactly straight inactivity or contemplation of retirement. He was in camp for a #1 v #2 fight untill Fury finally dropped away in retirement/disgrace. Then they made the fight against the highest ranked guy possible - Joshua. They were clearly the two best at that time. For what it's worth, TBRB ranked Wlad at #2 to Joshua's #1 immediately after they fought.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The point is that there were multiple claims to the lineage because no-one had established their claim beyond any doubt. Until Usyk beat Fury. Prior to that is one of those grey areas that have existed many times in the history of boxing, only to be cleared up by a single champion. People might rewrite that history and claim precedents but none exist and there's no-one to adjudicate them. We all know what the man looks like once he's become the man.

To be honest, it was Fury and ESPN's marketing that even made this an issue. He had no right to claim that status, and even less right to devalue it with the fights he apparently defended it in. If his claims were true then the lineal championship was worthless.

He claims to be a boxing historian but he's actually exactly what he appears to be - a gypsy conman.

This argument is predicated on one, single question. Did Tyson Fury win against Wladimir Klitschko, or did he not?

Beyond that question; the post is comprised of pychobabel.

Joshua certainly had no claim to anything not made of plastic for having beaten the aged, inactive, unranked and titless Klitschko.

As far as bold claims regarding the existence of an historical precident, dancing around the relationship between precedent and adjudication; or inventing "multiple claims" to the title liniage when there simply were not, well; I Don't wish to be harsh.

Believe as you wish. That is a problem for nobody.