The lineal HW title. A fart in the wind.

[Coverdale]

It wasn't the media who proclaimed Tyson Fury as lineal champion, it was Fury and his influential backers.

I don't bestow any authority on anybody. Who the fuck to you think I am, King of the world?

I'm just a boxing fan with enough common sense to understand how secondary world titles stand in relation to actual world titles.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. I'm not as invested with the idea Fury remained the world heavyweight champion after he retired as others are.

I'm completely relaxed with the idea that the claim was disputed by Usyk until their fight which is now resolved.

To reemphasise my previous point, the word "lineal" has only come into parlance in the alphabet age to distinguish the man-who-beat-the-man lineage from sanctioning body manoeuvrings. It used to just be referred to as "the world heavyweight championship".

Lennox Lewis was introduced as the "linear, legitimate and universally recognised..." for the Tyson and Vitali fights, I suspect, due to the WBA situation which was discussed in depth here.

[kafkod]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. I'm not as invested with the idea Fury remained the world heavyweight champion after he retired as others are.

I'm completely relaxed with the idea that the claim was disputed by Usyk until their fight which is now resolved.

To reemphasise my previous point, the word "lineal" has only come into parlance in the alphabet age to distinguish the man-who-beat-the-man lineage from sanctioning body manoeuvrings. It used to just be referred to as "the world heavyweight championship".

Lennox Lewis was introduced as the "linear, legitimate and universally recognised..." for the Tyson and Vitali fights, I suspect, due to the WBA situation which was discussed in depth here.

The idea of the lineal champion was invented by Nat Fleischer for Ring Magazine back in the 1920s. Ring wanted to establish a historical record of world champions in every division, and man-who-beat-the-man lineages were the best way of accomplishing that. So the lineal champion had to win a recognized, officially sanctioned world title in order to achieve lineal recognition.


The important thing to note about the bolded is that "linear, legitimate and universally recognised..." was a recognition of Lewis' status going into that fight. He wasn't claiming to be the holder of a none-existent lineal title.

[Willow The Wisp]

Usyk is still the champion.

If he throws the WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, IBO, and Ring belts in the garbage tomorrow but then continues fighting, he'll still be the real world champion. Until he loses or retires, he's the world champion no matter which belts he does or doesn't carry around or how the ring announcer wants to introduce him.

Yup. That's how it's Always been.
TS is a simple man, so I won't pick on him.

[dannnnn]

Usyk is still the champion.

If he throws the WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, IBO, and Ring belts in the garbage tomorrow but then continues fighting, he'll still be the real world champion. Until he loses or retires, he's the world champion no matter which belts he does or doesn't carry around or how the ring announcer wants to introduce him.

Yup. That's how it's Always been.
TS is a simple man, so I won't pick on him.

"Until he loses or retires"

Good, so we're agreed then that Fury was no longer the lineal champion after he came back from retirement.

[famicommander]

"Until he loses or retires"

Good, so we're agreed then that Fury was no longer the lineal champion after he came back from retirement.

Correct.

A new lineage began when Fury beat Wilder in their second fight, as they were the top two rated heavyweights by the TBRB, Ring, ESPN, and almost every other independent organization.

Then Fury retired again and another new lineage began when Oleksandr Usyk beat Anthony Joshua in August 2022, and he's been the champion ever since.

The lineage goes
Lewis --> Vacant --> Klitschko --> Fury --> Vacant --> Fury --> Vacant --> Usyk

[kafkod]

Yup. That's how it's Always been.
TS is a simple man, so I won't pick on him.

Your problem is that you don't know anything about boxing history



s-l1600.jpg

[kafkod]

Correct.

A new lineage began when Fury beat Wilder in their second fight, as they were the top two rated heavyweights by the TBRB, Ring, ESPN, and almost every other independent organization.

Then Fury retired again and another new lineage began when Oleksandr Usyk beat Anthony Joshua in August 2022, and he's been the champion ever since.

The lineage goes
Lewis --> Vacant --> Klitschko --> Fury --> Vacant --> Fury --> Vacant --> Usyk

You are all over the damned place with this post.

For one thing, you are confusing the Ring Magazine title with some none-existent, imaginary lineal title. The Ring title is NOT the lineal title. Ring made that clear themselves when they reintroduced their title in 2002.

And this post from you is literally the first time I have seen anybody claiming that Usyk became lineal champ by beating AJ. And that perfectly illustrates the problem with this lineal title nonsense. All it does is spread confusion and disagreement.

[kafkod]

"Until he loses or retires"

Good, so we're agreed then that Fury was no longer the lineal champion after he came back from retirement.

If lineal status is based on man-who-beat-the-man, which is what lineal fanboys claim, then Fury was never the lineal champion, period, and neither was Wlad Klitschko.

[famicommander]

You are all over the damned place with this post.

For one thing, you are confusing the Ring Magazine title with some none-existent, imaginary lineal title. The Ring title is NOT the lineal title. Ring made that clear themselves when they reintroduced their title in 2002.

And this post from you is literally the first time I have seen anybody claiming that Usyk became lineal champ by beating AJ. And that perfectly illustrates the problem with this lineal title nonsense. All it does is spread confusion and disagreement.

I never said the Ring determined the lineal title. I said that, when vacant, the lineal championship is determined by a fight between the consensus top 2 fighters in the division. So to determine who the consensus top two are, you look at all the independent sources that rank fighters. When they all agree on a top two and there is no active lineage, that's how you get a new champion.

At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

At the time of Joshua vs Usyk II, every independent source had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

Some people didn't recognize Fury's second retirement, so some people didn't recognize Joshua vs Usyk II as a lineal fight. But since Usyk went onto beat Fury anyway, the disagreement is solved.

It would really help your case if you demonstrated the slightest amount of reading comprehension.

The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:
https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Ol..._(2nd_meeting)


The TBRB succession page lists it as establishing a new lineage:

https://tbrb.org/successions

This isn't something I just made up. The only people who didn't consider it a lineal title fight are the people who didn't believe Fury when he said he was retiring again.

[kafkod]

I never said the Ring determined the lineal title. I said that, when vacant, the lineal championship is determined by a fight between the consensus top 2 fighters in the division. So to determine who the consensus top two are, you look at all the independent sources that rank fighters. When they all agree on a top two and there is no active lineage, that's how you get a new champion.

At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

At the time of Joshua vs Usyk II, every independent source had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

Some people didn't recognize Fury's second retirement, so some people didn't recognize Joshua vs Usyk II as a lineal fight. But since Usyk went onto beat Fury anyway, the disagreement is solved.

It would really help your case if you demonstrated the slightest amount of reading comprehension.

The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:
https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Ol..._(2nd_meeting)


The TBRB succession page lists it as establishing a new lineage:

https://tbrb.org/successions

This isn't something I just made up. The only people who didn't consider it a lineal title fight are the people who didn't believe Fury when he said he was retiring again.

"At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage."

No, they did not. And that's not how lineage works anyway.

The truth is that Fury vs Wilder was advertised and sold as a WBC and lineal title unification fight. And Fury was billed and introduced as the reigning lineal champion before the fight even started. Did you not watch it, or follow any of the build up?


"The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:"

A vacant lineal title fight!? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? And even if it made any logical sense, who gave BoxRec the authority to award lineal titles to anybody?

There was a lot of argument and disagreement back then about whether Fury's lineal championship claim was legit, but nobody - and I mean literally nobody - ever said anything about the winner of Usyk vs AJ being the lineal champ.