When did the 9-belt era begin?

[billeau2]

Yeah basically that's what I'm calling lineal. The history of the sash and the history of fan influence kinda go hand-in-hand. The fact that lineal narrative was done by a man who didn't do the research gives me motive enough to recast light on the issue often.

Just to say I recognize sashes have nothing to do with what Nat had to talk about but sashes have a lot more to do with what you are talking about then any bull**** like man who beat the man

I'm not really ready for the full sha****. You can tell i kinda don't have much to say to the body era Which is the ****ing meat of the story. I get that. But I had a physical representation of fan support for most of boxing history to lean on. I'm looking atm for what one could call beyond any doubt fan support.

I think PPV. I know I talked **** but lacking anything better I might go PPV. Also, I think King might be something of a hero in this story,



I don't know ATM




What I do find curious is why there's so many threads made by OP that serves for nothing but confirmation bias hunting and no attempt at any resolution. 9 belt era? I believe it took until me to actually lay out the active belts and I believe I'm still waiting to be told if these are the 9 dale had in mind.

Yeah I think the lineal speaks to that tradition. These traditions evolve from previous traditions. The rough and tumble is a great example. A noble tradition, and I do not mean that as a representation, or value, simply that the aristocracy started duels, when that was translated into a more wild and wooly, unstructured social context we see something that has roots in a power base based on preserving one's place.

Fan power and the lineal are a power base. The power of the duel was not in winning, It was in preserving one's place. That's just the fact and whether we like it or not that's what the power in the process was.

The power of the lineal is preserving a line of succession showing the best at any given time. This is where people IMO get caught up: you never really matters if the lineal is unresolved because eventually it will become resolved. What matters is always having a representation of the fighter that beat the best and becomes the best. And here's the kicker, the fans have a right to make that determination ultimately.

The only reason the fans are watching is to watch their man try to be the best. This is unfettered, it is pure.

[billeau2]

Oh wait, you did it. Congratulations.

It was intended to provoke debate. Can someone really be an "undisputed" champion when the SBs are recognising other titleholders in the same division?

As stated at least twice already, I was largely supportive of the "three belt era". I could live with the comical rankings if we could get back to three belts and no 'interim/secondary' nonsense.

The logic is infallible. We start from the premise there should be a champion, based on the definition of a champion. We tolerate some logical distortion... All right so now we have three champions maybe we can call them regional, call them a farm system of a sort yada yada... But by the time we get to where we are now? It becomes ridiculous.

[elfag]

What happened to the diamond belt

[kafkod]

Well its all good. Now we both know? I do have a nuanced opinion, I admit as much. I don't see a black and white picture in the case of how power is used. There generally are rules for power. Like for example, If Prince Harry leaves the "Firm" his family, he cannot expect certain privaleges like security. This was recently upheld in a court. Institutions use power in different ways and I know that can be confusing. Heredity based traditions operate differently than state, government sanctioned institutions.

Even in Japan, where basically 3 corporations and the Empror run the country together, exersize power differently. A citizen hired by one of Japans 3 major corporations is considered privaleged... That citizen will never be allowed to accumulate much wealth, unless at the very top of the corporate ladder and must almost literally give everything, not used, back to the government (the empror). The empror is the figure head, the status symbol, the protector of traditions... Through his power things like martial traditions some unbroken since the 1500's are protected. The corporations provide work, purpose and a goal for people economically. They have two distinct operations.

The lineal is basically a proto-heredity title. It is based, in its structure and form, on the old Aristocratic titles around when the Marquis Queensbury was creating an alternative for duels. I mean I know this might be overstated, but whether the marquis was responsible for this, or others were, the idea is correct. Instead of one's status, one's fighting ability was the announcement prior to hostilities! Not to belabor a point: Originally (until the second Mongol invasion) Japanese Samurai, much like European knights, would state their heredity and deeds prior to battling. Same idea.

Kafkod... Think about it! An announcer? What is an announcer? See how this works? The announcer in a boxing match is the speaker! He parlays the deeds and the heredity connections of the fighters. Weighing in at so many pounds fighting out of ______! With a record of, please welcome_____. Then you have seconds right? Seconds are like the knights retainers. See the connection here? You and I are two knights getting ready to joust, our seconds behind us on a battle field, in a tourney and we need an introduction, we need seconds, etc.

These actions speak to the nature of boxing retained as part of the sport through traditions most people have no understanding about... Mike Tyson, actually a very smart boxing historican pointed out once that in the Five Points hood of old New York the "corners" were Red or Blue because the fighters were hired to represent the two interests: Demo crat and Rep ublican.

If you understand the above you understand that the power of these traditions along with the fans who bare witness, the fans who declare whom is the best, the fans who then assert the bragging rights of the man who beat the best, etc...are a power structure within itself. Nowhere is there a place for sanctions, regulation, consistent rules and regulations for the sake of safety in this line of power. This task falls upon an objective body with no ulterior motives. That is a different ball of wax and should not interfere with the lineal provisions.

Both structures are necessary. Even having regional set ups are necessary. The problem becomes when Any of these two structures is abused and misused. And that is my issue. Not the nature of the duties, rather how they are carried out. And we can disagree about whether the lineal has real power , or not, at least you perhaps understand my issue?

That's an interesting read, and I can see where you are coming from. But, unfortunately, I have to repeat again that I believe you are fundamentally misunderstanding what a lineal boxing champion actually is. March explained it probably better than I could. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[billeau2]

What happened to the diamond belt

Someone tried to cut it into smaller precious stones? So now we can have like 5 of them? Isn't that how all belts work these days?

[billeau2]

That's an interesting read, and I can see where you are coming from. But, unfortunately, I have to repeat again that I believe you are fundamentally misunderstanding what a lineal boxing champion actually is. March explained it probably better than I could. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I have no problem with any opinion. Lets just be cognizant of what our points are.