Who is better? Joe Joyce or Luis Ortiz

[kafkod]

Nope. Sometimes age does not factor in...

True. When it doesn't suit your agenda, age doesn't factor in. Wilder was certainly "pulling the trigger" against Zhang. He actually landed 4 right hands on Zhang in the first round alone! They just didn't have the same effect on the Big Bang as they had on the bum squad Wilder built his reputation knocking over.

[billeau2]

True. When it doesn't suit your agenda, age doesn't factor in. Wilder was certainly "pulling the trigger" against Zhang. He actually landed 4 right hands on Zhang in the first round alone! They just didn't have the same effect on the Big Bang as they had on the bum squad Wilder built his reputation knocking over.

!!! Wilder was so obviously shot that fight... Do not embarass yourself Theodore! You may not believe it was a factor but there is no denying his actions were textbook for a fighter who is unable to pull the trigger. Stop pissing on my leg and telling me it is raining! You can also disagree about Joyce, but it is also obvious that he was unable in the Zhang and SUBSEQUENT fights, to make adjustments to his approach defensively. FACTS Theodore, FACTS!. Maybe they do not matter to you? And you have some other reason you believe otherwise? but they are undeniable.

[TheProudLunatic]

My opinion is more H2H, Prime for prime

[The D3vil]

Ortiz didn't have a tricky style though. He wasn't an awkward southpaw. And his movement is definitely not something to write home about.

Who avoided him? All i saw was Ortiz getting opportunities after talking then backing away to fight some more bums.

At which title should Ortiz have got a shot at? And at which point in time?

He was an awkward southpaw with power & skills.

He was the WBA interim champion 2x & was supposed to fight Joshua after Klitschko, but they found a way to wiggle out of it.

Fury, Joshua, & Klitschko wanted nothing to do with Ortiz at his peak.

The only time Joshua wanted to fight him was on short rest when Big Baby Miller tested positive for PEDs & he had fought 2 months earlier.

[PRINCEKOOL]

This is a difficult one to assess 'Joe Joyce definitive has a greater resume, but? Luiz Ortiz at his absolute peak, or just in solid form skill for skill may be a superior fighter'.

Once upon a time? It was looking like Joe Joyce may be invulnerable to physical attacks 'When Deontay Wilder was still regarded as one of the most dangerous fighters in the Heavyweight Division. There were people within the boxing community, who want Joe Joyce to fight Deontay Wilder. And many of those people were stating that Joyce, may be able to withstand Wilder's power'.

Since Joe Joyce was stopped twice back to back by Zhilei Zhang 'The tactics of Joe Joyce just being able to wade forward vs Deontay Wilder and applying pressure. Now? Those tactics seem like they would be extremely dangerous tactics. I think Joe Joyce in his best form, would of need to use similar tactics that he used vs Daniel Dubois against Deontay Wilder'.

People may criticise Joe Joyce's speed, and defense 'But when he really wanted to, Joyce had quite solid boxing fundamentals. And I personally think skill for skill he was a better boxer than Deontay Wilder'.

Luiz Ortiz skill for skill has been one of the better Heavyweight fighters of this era 'Unfortunately in my opinion? He just came into contact with a peak Deontay Wilder. If Luiz Ortiz would of fought Tyson Fury, I honestly believe? That he would have had the ability to really push Fury in a very close fight'.

Note: Luiz Ortiz vs Tyson Fury 'Stylistically is not a easy fight for Fury. Luiz Ortiz skill for skill was good enough, not to be intimidated by Tyson Fury's boxing ability. And Ortiz also had enough power to deck Fury. Tyson Fury in my opinion would have also had a difficult time, attempting to bull Ortiz with his inside game. Ortiz was a solid, and highly skilled Heavyweight fighter, borderline Super Heavyweight fighter. Upper range Classically physique Heavyweight fighter, as I would not class Ortiz as a genuine Super Heavyweight'.

Many Heavyweight fighters competing in today's modern era 'Fundamentally are not Super Heavyweight fighters. They are just fighters ether out of condition, or they have pumped themselves up via the use of body building methods . What people need to realize, is that? It is not the numbers on the scale which determine whether a Heavyweight fighter is a Super Heavyweight'.

Lets all reflect back, Deontay Wilder for his third fight vs Tyson Fury III 'Wilder pumped himself up to 238 pounds, solid and in condition. That weight range is pretty much what many people would consider as a solid Super Heavyweight. But Deontay Wilder is definitively fundamentally, not a Super Heavyweight fighter',

To conclude: But in regards to the matchup between Luiz Ortiz and Joe Joyce 'And which fighter was better at their absolute peak. As I stated at the beginning of my post, Joe Joyce has a by far better resume, but? Luiz Ortiz skill for skill at times may have performed at a higher level during his fights. Ortiz whether he has won or lost, has always displayed that he is solid fighter, nobody can really heavily criticise him from a technical perspective. He has shown that he was a top level fighter'.

In a hypothetical match up, peak vs peak 'This is pretty much an evenly split fight. And in a present day fight? I would back Joe Joyce to beat Luiz Ortiz in a competitive fight'.

Note: I have not voted on the poll etc.

[JakeTheBoxer]

Ortiz is better boxer. Joyce has a bettter resume.

They should actually fight each other now and say goodbye.

[Sid-Knee]

No no... I made my points and justified them... they are in the thread. You? Started your usual insanity, going all over the place... But hey it is what makes you amusing, however? I do not do insane tangents ...

Here is what you and Daggum do not get: Levels to the game... At a casual inspection certain things are indeed consistent. However when put to close scrutiny? when fighters are more carefully dissected? when the finer points of skill sets, wins, losses, and those aspects that link up to those events are carefully scrutinized? a different picture can emerge. For example: Look at a series of graphs for something like *******, where there appears to be much volatility, day to day, as compared to month to month where there is less, and then we see the graph for years, which has a consistent upward trajectory... Someone like me? I then seek to understand WHY those graphs show a different picture...

Superficially one can ignore how weak the division has been, pretending to be able to carve out distinctions amongst fighters who are workmanlike at best. One can pretend to ignore changes, like when a fighter gets better, worse, puts it together, is exposed, shot, etc... One can choose to ignore tape showing skills, and aspects of skills...ALL IN THE NAME of SUBJECTIVE RANKING, and looking at the fighters from one perspective (see graph example). People who are not just Euro super fans can see a fighter like Ortiz has skills that characterize many of the Cuban fighters that come over LATE.

Wilder's hand speed, his foot speed can be observed... And these observations are confirmed. You actually believe (if I read you right) that Vitalie Klitsko would beat Ali... lol. Need I say more?

So no... we will not go over anything Gimp. My points are made. Rebuttals that suggest Ali would lose to Vitalie Klitsko and some of the other ridiculous Joshuastan garbage cannot seriously be debated.

What the f3ck is all this waffle? All this and you still couldn't justify what you said. You claim you did, but you factually didn't. Show me otherwise? Don't try and run away and use deflection tactics like you're bored with all this now. No, you're just in a tight spot where you can't justify any of your nonsense so you want out.

"Yes Joyce was exposed... When was the last time he beat a decent fighter?"

This is what you wrote. Justify it without hypocrisy or contradiction. Then we'll get to all the other points. But it's clear you can't even get over the first step.

[Sid-Knee]

So you assume like most super Eurofans that you know the finer points of negotiations. Falling for the crap that Eddie Hearn and his ilk manufacture. You haven't a clue about these negotiations... None of us do. What we see are the results of these negotiations... The process? It is media controlled, and used to manipulate fans who do not know better... casuals like you Gimp! .

It was years before Don King and later Satanic Bob were exposed to fans...

Yeah, Eddie manufactured Ortiz saying he was ready for AJ on video while he was preparing for Miller. Eddie manufactured Ortiz saying if Miller pulls out for whatever reason, he'll step in. That he's been training for some time. Eddie Manufactured offering a multi million dollar contract only for them to say they were worth 10 Mill. All this on the record with all the evidence there for anyone to see. Then when Ruiz got the gig, Ortiz's team putting it out there that they got it badly wrong. Well duh. Of course they did. They were paid only 500,000 for the Wilder fight. But apparently, after getting knocked out, your money skyrockets even though you don't sell tickets or generate any money.

Yeah, Eddie manufactured all these facts. Haha.

The only one manufacturing anything here is you with all your bullshlt and lunacy. You can't even justify a simple comment you wrote. I asked you to, but you came out with all manner of nonsense to deflect. Normal people get straight to answering the question. Not deflecting. That tells us everything about you and your non stop nonsense.

[Sid-Knee]

He was an awkward southpaw with power & skills.

He was the WBA interim champion 2x & was supposed to fight Joshua after Klitschko, but they found a way to wiggle out of it.

Fury, Joshua, & Klitschko wanted nothing to do with Ortiz at his peak.

The only time Joshua wanted to fight him was on short rest when Big Baby Miller tested positive for PEDs & he had fought 2 months earlier.

Show me these performances where Ortiz was awkward? I want to see these supposed awkward skills. A bum who couldn't hit a house right in front of him doesn't justify Ortiz being an awkward southpaw. It just means his opponent is clearly lacking.

The IBF and WBA released statements clearly explaining that the IBF mandatory was first in line. The WBA's one was to confirm that to be the case and that Ortiz would be next after Takam. But Ortiz ran to Wilder which was a much easier fight and for a lot less. Ortiz was even signed to Matchroom so there were no promotional obstacles in the way.

At which point could Wlad face Ortiz? Give me a time and date. Don't just make it up and hope everyone has forgotten about it all. When could Fury face Ortiz too?

Ortiz said he was ready for AJ at that time. This was even before Miller got the chop. Ortiz said he'd been in camp and was in great shape. So they offered him the gig only for the usual ducking to take place with that ridiculous price tag they asked for.

[daggum]

Show me these performances where Ortiz was awkward? I want to see these supposed awkward skills. A bum who couldn't hit a house right in front of him doesn't justify Ortiz being an awkward southpaw. It just means his opponent is clearly lacking.

The IBF and WBA released statements clearly explaining that the IBF mandatory was first in line. The WBA's one was to confirm that to be the case and that Ortiz would be next after Takam. But Ortiz ran to Wilder which was a much easier fight and for a lot less. Ortiz was even signed to Matchroom so there were no promotional obstacles in the way.

At which point could Wlad face Ortiz? Give me a time and date. Don't just make it up and hope everyone has forgotten about it all. When could Fury face Ortiz too?

Ortiz said he was ready for AJ at that time. This was even before Miller got the chop. Ortiz said he'd been in camp and was in great shape. So they offered him the gig only for the usual ducking to take place with that ridiculous price tag they asked for.

ortiz actually left matchroom before joshua-klitschko even happened which obviously makes the fight a lot harder to make. 100 percent his fault.

Mar 29, 2017 Luis Ortiz seems to have ended his relationship with Matchroom


then he failed a drug test and had his mandatory status stripped before joshua even had another fight. 100 percent his fault.

Sep 29, 2017 — Luis Ortiz has failed a drugs test

Oct 20, 2017 Luis Ortiz Suspended By WBA, No Longer Mandatory To Joshua


not sure why people just make things up as if ortiz didnt completely self sabotage himself