Is Canelo Greater than Chavez ? If he never fights Benavidez

[MONGOOSE66]

Why do you care about Benavidez needing to make his own way? Dont you want to see the best fight the best. Canelo is the unidputed Super Middleweight champ and Benavidez is the most deserving of a title shot

If Canelo isn’t giving him the fight “he has to make his own way”. Morell is also 168 and is deserving of a fight with Benividas but I don’t see benividas giving him the fight. You know why. Too risky.

[garfios]

Chavez pinnacle was against Whitaker and he really lost badly

I didn't see him lose, it was a controversy with the clock at the time of the stoppage, but Taylor was way more damaged than Chavez, he proved in the rematch too.

[GhostofDempsey]

No, it’s too little too late. Looking ahead there aren’t any big enough names he can beat at 168 to boost his legacy passed Chavez. He won’t beat Bivol in a rematch.

[garfios]

Some of the things you mentioned are intangibles. Things like the era, the grit vis-ŕ-vis the balls, things of that nature. This is why canelo's era has to pass. Some Eras in boxing are stronger, weaker, sometimes a Weight class is stronger, Etc.

you under rate canelo's level of opposition. And I also am an old head LOL. I think Chavez is overrated personally but I would never let that bias my ranking of him because I know I feel this way about him. I'm also very fond of Sanchez, ditto! My point is you don't seem very fond of Canelo LOL. Anytime anybody is of the opinion that a great fighter always fought all anything, great opponents , old opponents , Etc is biased in my opinion.

I don't like the guy, but he is the one that has fought the fighters I have mentioned. He underrated himself by waiting out ggg, by handicapping every boxer he has faced, always running from the best available and continues doing it, and the proof is in front of us to see it, there's no plausible reason for not to fight benavidez. Did I lie when I posted my opinion? I think Chavez beefed up his resume before he won his first belt, if my memory serves me well he fought Latigo Martinez for the 130 lbs belt, but he never hid from anyone and took on all comers. Compare the truly greats resume against that of canelo, take a look at Emilie Griffiths, Kid Gavilan, Mantequilla Napoles, Eder Joffre, Pacquio, Ali, Puas, Barrera, Morales, Marquez just to mention a few, and they all fought the proverbial bum of the month, it is understandable when you fight five, six seven fight at months, but the face of boxing who fights twice a year and makes 30M per fight, and he is going to defend the belt against ryder? And you have benavidez waiting to fight for the belt two years and counting, Morell jr has been waiting for three years, and you're fighting ryder. Common man, it is not only me, the backslash is huge. His manager just said that he doesn't think his legacy is tarnished if he doesn't fight benavidez. I have never seen something like that, can you imagine Angelo Dundee having a press conference telling the world that Leonard was not going to fight Hearns because his legacy was secured.

[Malvado]

Me personally I don't think so, Chavez had more consistent wins against fresher opposition.

Having controversially a draw against Whitaker because of styles like Canelo/Mayweather did due to age or skill doesn't really impact my view in their perspective legacies.

Chavez holds records for most successful consecutive defenses of world titles (27), most title fights (37), most title-fight victories (31), and he is tied with Joe Louis for most title defenses won by knockout (21).

Chavez good opposition was:

-Mario "Azabache" Martinez (33-1-2), Ruben Castillo (60-4-2), Roger Mayweather X2 (21-2)(34-5), Rocky Lockridge (38-4), Juan Laporte (27-6), Francisco Tomas Da Cruz (27-1), Edwin Rosario (31-2), Rodolfo Aguilar (20-0), Jose Luis Ramirez (101-6), Alberto Cortes (44-0), Meldrick Taylor (24-0-1), Kyung Duk Ahn (29-1), John Duplessis (36-1), Angel Hernandez (37-0-2), Frankie Mitchell (29-1), Hector Camacho (40-1), Marty Jakubowski (37-0), Greg Haugen (32-4), Pernell Whitaker (32-1), Andy Holligan (21-0), Tony Lopez (45-4-1), Frankie Randall X2 (48-2-1)(49-2-1), Giovanni Parisi (29-1), David Kamau (26-0), Scott Walker (21-3-1),Oscar De La Hoya X2 (21-0)(28-0), Joey Gamache (45-2), Miguel Angel Gonzalez (42-1), Ken Sigurani (22-1), Kostya Tszyu (24-1)

If Chavez only had fought them, he have a record of (30-4-2) against top opposition I think. Plenty of them being ranked opponents who just didn't accomplish enough to be remembered and others being HOF fighters like Mayweather, Rosario, Ramirez, Taylor, Camacho, Haugen, Whitaker, De La Hoya X2, and Tszyu.

World champions whom Chavez defeated in total include Jose Luis Ramírez, Rafael Limón, Rocky Lockridge, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather, Lonnie Smith, Sammy Fuentes, Héctor "Macho" Camacho, Juan Laporte, Edwin Rosario, Greg Haugen, Tony López, Giovanni Parisi, Joey Gamache, and Frankie Randall, had a draw by two others: Pernell Whitaker and Miguel Ángel González. He had lost to De La Hoya X2, Randall and Tszyu. (16-4-2 against Champions) But I would say Limon and Fuentes had heavily declined.

Canelo opposition was:

Jose Cotto (31-1-1), Carlos Baldomir (46-12-6), Kermit Cintron (33-4-1), Shane Mosley (46-7-1), Josesito Lopez (30-4-), Austin Trout (26-0), Floyd Mayweather (44-0), Alfredo Angulo (22-3), Erislandy Lara (19-1-2), James Kirkland (32-1), Miguel Cotto (40-4), Amir Khan (31-3), Liam Smith (23-0-1), Chavez Jr (50-2-1), Gennady Golovkin X3 (37-0)(38-0-1)(42-1-1), Rocky Fielding (27-1), Daniel Jacobs (35-2), Sergey Kovalev (34-3-1), Callum Smith (27-0), Billy Joe Saunders (30-0), Caleb Plant (21-0), Dmitrii Bivol (19-0), John Ryder (32-5), Jermell Charlo (35-1-1).

If Canelo had only fought them, he be (24-2) against top opposition, however fighters like:

Baldomir, Cintron, Mosley, and Miguel Cotto had heavily declined. With Mosley and Cotto having stipulations. (Mayweather also had declined though he still remained to be at the top level).

Fighters that had a catchweight and Rehydration clauses were:

-Rocky Fielding Rehydration clause of 10 pounds
-Floyd Mayweather catchweight (152)
-Alfredo Angulo catchweight (155)
Erislandy Lara catchweight (155)
-Miguel Cotto catchweight (155) and a rehydration clause.
-Liam Smith catchweight (155)
-Julio Cesar Chavez Jr catchweight (165)
-Daniel Jacobs rehydration clause up to 170 at middleweight (160).
-Sergey Kovalev rehydration clause.

He also dragged up fighters from a division below:

Josesito Lopez (147>154)
Amir Khan (147>160)
Jermell Charlo (154>168)

Declined fighters:

Carlos Baldomir
Kermit Cintron
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather
Miguel Cotto
Amir Khan
Gennady Golovkin (third match)
John Ryder

So in my opinion his best wins over solid competition are Charlo, Trout, Cotto, Lara, Kirkland, GGG, Jacobs, Fielding, Kovalev (?), Callum Smith, Saunders, and Plant. Cotto is an ATG but had declined and too many stipulations by the time they fought each other, Lara and GGG are from HOF. The rest are solid world champions. 11-12 good opponents he beat. But most are debatable if they belong at HOF and some were not at their best.

But in my opinion Chavez Sr had more consistent wins over quality opposition. With his best win being over Edwin Rosario, Hector Camacho and Meldrick Taylor the Golden Olympian who never fulfilled his potential due to the damage he received at that match.

[garfios]

You could easily argue Cowdell won that fight.

That version of Azumah Nelson, taking the fight on one weeks notice, was not in his prime. That's just a fact.

Canelo's resume is objectively better. I don't see how that's even an argument.

He was one year older than SS, he did have two weeks notice, but he was in shape nobody goes 15 rounds with Sanchez without been fit, the mouth guard issue was more damaging than the two weeks notice, if we are going to be objective, canelo lost against ggg first time, period, and arguably the second one, and also lost to Lara and looked like an amateur throwing punches to the wind. Find me a real win against a Hall of Famer on ginger's resume, by the way, there was no other featherweight in the world at that time that could have beat Azumah that night.

[The plunger man]

Chavez was a different animal……even in the twilight of his career he fought bigger dangerous men….he never ducked anybody and to even mention canelo in the same sentence is insulting.
now I don’t expect canelo to go up to 175 and compete with the big boys ( he already failed with Bivol ). But you don’t claim to be the P4P best fighter and then avoid his mandatory like the plague.
He looks like a proper ponce when he walks on to stage with his pink silk Valentino PJ’s for his weigh ins…….if he don’t want proper challenges as champion then he should vacate his belt because it’s out of order

[IronDanHamza]

He was one year older than SS, he did have two weeks notice, but he was in shape nobody goes 15 rounds with Sanchez without been fit, the mouth guard issue was more damaging than the two weeks notice, if we are going to be objective, canelo lost against ggg first time, period, and arguably the second one, and also lost to Lara and looked like an amateur throwing punches to the wind. Find me a real win against a Hall of Famer on ginger's resume, by the way, there was no other featherweight in the world at that time that could have beat Azumah that night.

Well firstly he didn't lose to Lara. Secondly he didn't lose to GGG. So let's stick to what actually happened.

What relevance does it have that he was one year older to the fact he was as green as grass and took the fight on a week's notice? That's not a prime version of Azumah Nelson.

Canelo has multiple wins over HOF'ers. And what he definitely has, is a way better resume than Sanchez.

[billeau2]

I don't like the guy, but he is the one that has fought the fighters I have mentioned. He underrated himself by waiting out ggg, by handicapping every boxer he has faced, always running from the best available and continues doing it, and the proof is in front of us to see it, there's no plausible reason for not to fight benavidez. Did I lie when I posted my opinion? I think Chavez beefed up his resume before he won his first belt, if my memory serves me well he fought Latigo Martinez for the 130 lbs belt, but he never hid from anyone and took on all comers. Compare the truly greats resume against that of canelo, take a look at Emilie Griffiths, Kid Gavilan, Mantequilla Napoles, Eder Joffre, Pacquio, Ali, Puas, Barrera, Morales, Marquez just to mention a few, and they all fought the proverbial bum of the month, it is understandable when you fight five, six seven fight at months, but the face of boxing who fights twice a year and makes 30M per fight, and he is going to defend the belt against ryder? And you have benavidez waiting to fight for the belt two years and counting, Morell jr has been waiting for three years, and you're fighting ryder. Common man, it is not only me, the backslash is huge. His manager just said that he doesn't think his legacy is tarnished if he doesn't fight benavidez. I have never seen something like that, can you imagine Angelo Dundee having a press conference telling the world that Leonard was not going to fight Hearns because his legacy was secured.

Yeah I mean that's boxing these days. I agree from a general perspective with what you're saying. But Canelo has fought some tough opponents and while older Fighters Imo were bred under much better conditions, fought much more, had many more technical skills, just doesn't mean that every situation is a negative for Canelo.

I also think Chavez got a few gifts as well. Also I should clarify that I just think Sanchez because of the tragedy that occurred is hard to compare, not that he wasn't a fantastic fighter. I mean if I had to Hazard a guess, assuming Sanchez had lived, he probably would have had one incredible career even beyond what he achieved.

[garfios]

Well firstly he didn't lose to Lara. Secondly he didn't lose to GGG. So let's stick to what actually happened.

What relevance does it have that he was one year older to the fact he was as green as grass and took the fight on a week's notice? That's not a prime version of Azumah Nelson.

Canelo has multiple wins over HOF'ers. And what he definitely has, is a way better resume than Sanchez.

What really happened is selective for you. Because Sanchez won, and Azumah was a very good amateur back when they didn't use headgear. Sanchez had almost no amateur experience, 9 fights. And what really happened with canelo's fights was corrupts judges. Why don't you mention all those hall of famers that canelo beat, pretty sure they were old and past their prime, I think one of them beat him too, and almost got robbed. Like I said, canelo doesn't have fans, fanboys they are. A guy like you that "live" throught those greats fighters and picking a fraud over Sanchez and Chávez. I think you just read what happened back then.