Casual Fans overlooking Fury's mastery of his Era?

[Marchegiano]

That entire post is inaccurate, very silly, and specious.
Nobody but a fool would support that "argument".

Only foolish people, who don't know how to think critically, make category errors like the one I highlighted in my post, and don't understand the mistake they made, even when it's pointed out to them.

I just grabbed some random quotes to get y'all's attention. not directly responding to what's in the quotes.




I am curious what makes any posted lineage more empirical than any other.





The title lineage is empirical and longstanding.The principles upon which the title was built and maintained have never been in dispute .-Willow

This is a clear example of a logical fallacy known as the "category error." You are talking about an abstract idea, based upon subjective interpretation of historical facts, as if that abstract idea was itself a historical fact. - Kafkod


Are y'all very sure?

For Willow I would like to know what makes any list empirical.

From Kaf I'd like to know what makes a list of succession subjective.

I am not sure either of you questioned your own stances before digging in. That said, one of youse has to be right or at least more righter than the other.

[Marchegiano]

I have not worked on this to any real degree since 2018 and not at all since 2021. Also you're going to see I had began identifying titles but still:

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD

Banned by Theodosius I in 393 AD

English Era

The Unnamed Dark Age Butcher - 1681

James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1728

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The ***' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The ******ia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

Daniel Knox - 1842

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jim Dunne - 1863

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Charlie 'The Black Thunderbolt' Smith - 1876 Colored

Joe Goss - 1876

'Scalping' Morris Grant - 1878 Colored

Paddy Ryan - 1880

Charles 'Professor' Hadley - 1881 Colored

John 'The Boston Strong Boy' L. Sullivan - 1882 Traditional Lineal

George 'Old Chocolate' Godfrey - 1883 Colored

American Era

'The Great' John L. Sullivan - 1885

Peter 'The Great' Jackson - 1888 Colored

'Gentleman Jim' James J. Corbett - 1892

Peter Maher - 1895 Alternative Lineal

Bob 'The King of the Battle Royal' Armstrong - 1896 Colored

'Ruby' Robert James Fitzsimmons - 1897

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1898

George Byers - 1898

Klon***e - 1899

James 'The Boilermaker' J. Jeffries - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1901

Ed 'The Colorado Giant' Martin - 1902

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1903

Marvin 'The Louisville Plumber' Hart - 1905

Jack Palmer - 1905 NSC

Noah Brusso a.k.a. Tommy 'The Little Giant of Hanover' Burns - 1906

Gunner Moir - 1906 NSC

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1908

Sam McVea - 1909

Iron Hague - 1909 NSC

Sam Langford - 1909 NSC

Jeremiah "Joe" Jeannette - 1909

Samuel 'Boston Bonecrusher' Langford - 1910

Al Palzer - 1911

Billy Wells - 1911 NSC

Sam McVea - 1911

Sam 'Boston Tar Baby' Langford - 1912

Luther McCarty - 1913 White

Arthur Pelkey - 1913 White

Edward 'Gunboat' Smith - 1914 White

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1914 Colored

Georges 'The Orchid Man' Carpentier - 1914 White

Sam 'Boston Terror' Langford - 1914 Colored

Jess 'Pottawatomie Giant' Willard - 1915 Traditional Lineal

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1916 Colored

Sam 'Greatest Fighter Nobody Knows' Langford - 1916

'Big' Bill Tate - 1917

Sam 'Boston' Langford - 1917

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1918

Jack 'The Manassa Mauler' Dempsey - 1919

Frank Goddard - 1919 NSC

Joe Beckett - 1921 NSC

James Joseph Tunney a.k.a Gene 'The Fighting Marine' Tunney - 1926

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1926

(Lawrence Samuel) 'Loopin'' Larry Gains - 1928

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1930

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1931

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1931

Joseph Paul Zukauskas a.k.a Jack 'Sharkboy' Sharkey - 1932

Primo Carnera - 1933

'Bearcat' Obie Dia Walker - 1933

Maximilian Adelbert Baer - 1934

James J. (Walter) 'Pride of the Irish' Braddock - 1935

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1935

'Loopin' Larry Gains - 1935

Joseph 'The Brown Bomber' Louis Barrow - 1937

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1949

Lee 'The Battling Bartender' Savold (Hulver) - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1951

Arnold Raymond Cream a.k.a Jersey Joe Walcott - 1951

Rocco Francis Marchegiano a.k.a Rocky 'The Brockton Blockbuster' Marciano - 1952

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1956

Ingemar 'The Hammer of Tho' Johansson - 1959

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1960

Charles L. 'Sonny' 'The Big Bear' Liston - 1962

Cassius 'The Louisville Lip' Clay - 1964

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1964

Ernie Terrell - 1965

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1967

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1968

Jimmy (Albert) Ellis - 1968

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1970

'Big' George (Edward) Foreman - 1973

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1974

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

Ken 'The Jaw Breaker'(Howard) Norton - 1978

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1978

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1978

'Big' John Tate - 1979

Mike 'Hercules'(Dwayne) Weaver - 1980

Michael (Marshall) 'Dynamite' Dokes (Doakes) - 1982

Gerhardus 'Gerrie' 'The Bionic Hand' Christian Coetzee - 1983

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1983

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1984

'Pink' Pinklon Thomas - 1984

Greg Page - 1984

Tony 'TNT' Tubbs - 1985

Michael 'Jinx' Spinks - 1985

Trevor Berbick - 1985

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1986

James 'Bonecrusher' Smith - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1987

Tony 'TNT' Tucker - 1987

Mike Tyson - 1987

Francesco Damiani - 1989

James 'Buster' Douglas - 1990

Evander 'The Real Dea' Holyfield - 1990

Ray 'Merciless' Mercer - 1991

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1992

Tommy 'The Duke' Morrison - 1993

Michael Bentt - 1993

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1993

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1994

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1994

Oliver 'The Atomic Bull' McCall - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1995

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1995

Bruce 'The Atlantic City Express' Seldon - 1995

Frank Bruno - 1995

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1996

Henry Adetokunboh Akinwande - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson- 1996

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1996

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1997

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1997

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1997

Vitali 'Dr. Ironfist' Klitschko - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1999

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2000

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 2000

Wladimir 'Dr. Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2000

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2001

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion'Lewis - 2002

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2002

Roy 'Captain Hook' Jones, Jr. - 2003

Corrie 'The Sniper' Sanders - 2003

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2004

Lamon 'Relentless' Brewster - 2004

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2004

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2005

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2005

Siarhei 'The White Wolf' Liakhovich - 2006

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2006

Oleg 'The Big O' Maskaev - 2006

Shannon 'The Cannon' Briggs - 2006

Ruslan 'The White Tyson' Chagaev - 2007

Sultan(-Ahmed Magomedsalihovich) Ibragimov - 2007

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2008

Samuel Okon Peter - 2008

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2008

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2008

David 'The Hayemaker' Haye - 2009

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2011

Alexander 'Sasha' Povetkin - 2011

Bermane 'B.Ware' Stiverne - 2014

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2014

Deontay 'The Bronze Bomber' Wilder - 2015

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2015

'Prince' Charles Martin - 2016

Lucas 'Big Daddy' Browne - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2016

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2016

Joseph (Dennis) Parker - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2017

(Mahmoud Omeirat) Manuel 'Diamond Boy' Charr - 2017

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2018

(Andrés Ponce) Andy "Destroyer" Ruiz Jr. - 2019

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2019

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2020

Trevor "The Dream" Cosmo Bryan Jr. - 2021

Oleksandr "The Cat" (Oleksandrovych) Usyk - 2021





Empirical? Assuming no mistakes were made it is empirical? There is nothing subjective about this list?

On the other side of things, if you put a name and date into google you're going to get champion status in your search results and so how is it subjective?

Is it possible for a fact to be as ambivalent as emotions? One can feel joy and melancholy at once, perhaps a state of a thing can be both empirical and subjective?


I didn't mean for this list to be a lineal only list but lineal is in it of course. Is the lineal bit more empirical than the body titles or newspaper titles?

[MONGOOSE66]

I don't understand what you're attempting to achieve by asking what I'd do. I'm not claiming to be the heavyweight champion of the world.

It's fair to compare him to the last great heavyweight champion, Lennox Lewis. He compares badly in my opinion, what's your opinion on that comparison?

It’s also fair to compare him to an average man.

[crimsonfalcon07]

I did watch it, but I cast my vote with the judges who scored it a Fury win. Subjectivity in action!!!

About what I expected. I have yet to see any person who thinks that Fury won that fight actually break it down and attempt to score it objectively. Boxing is scored round by round, and by that metric he lost the fight, whether that be on who landed more punches Rd by Rd, or who landed the better punches in the fight Rd by Rd, or even on the metric of who you'd rather be at the end of the fight. Only one guy got dropped and beat up, and it wasn't the guy making his debut. The best thing he did to win that fight was sign to fight Usyk in December. Which he then didn't do. Don't know if it was him not taking it seriously or just that he's always been an overrated cheater, but his legacy looks worse and worse every day.

[kafkod]

I just grabbed some random quotes to get y'all's attention. not directly responding to what's in the quotes.




I am curious what makes any posted lineage more empirical than any other.





The title lineage is empirical and longstanding.The principles upon which the title was built and maintained have never been in dispute .-Willow

This is a clear example of a logical fallacy known as the "category error." You are talking about an abstract idea, based upon subjective interpretation of historical facts, as if that abstract idea was itself a historical fact. - Kafkod


Are y'all very sure?

For Willow I would like to know what makes any list empirical.

From Kaf I'd like to know what makes a list of succession subjective.

I am not sure either of you questioned your own stances before digging in. That said, one of youse has to be right or at least more righter than the other.

I didn't say a list of succession was subjective. (Though some of the names on that list will have been placed there for reasons which I would say are subjective because they involve judgement calls by one or more people. Eg, number 1 vs number 2 ranked contenders fighting for a title. Rankings are based on opinions about the merits of ranked fighters, and opinions are subjective.)

I did say that the concept of the lineal title itself is subjective. Because it is a concept and nothing more. Best way to illustrate what I mean by that is to contrast the lineal title with, eg, the WBA title. Yes, the WBA title is also a concept, but it is a concept based on objective, empirically provable facts: There is an organisation called the WBA which has the legal right to sanction boxing matches for the WBA title. Nobody but the WBA has that right and nobody can claim to be a WBA champion unless they win a WBA title in a fight sanctioned by the WBA and defend in accordance with WBA rules.

The lineal title has no such empirical basis. Like I said, it is a concept, and nothing more.

[kafkod]

I have not worked on this to any real degree since 2018 and not at all since 2021. Also you're going to see I had began identifying titles but still:

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD

Banned by Theodosius I in 393 AD

English Era

The Unnamed Dark Age Butcher - 1681

James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1728

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The ***' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The ******ia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

Daniel Knox - 1842

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jim Dunne - 1863

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Charlie 'The Black Thunderbolt' Smith - 1876 Colored

Joe Goss - 1876

'Scalping' Morris Grant - 1878 Colored

Paddy Ryan - 1880

Charles 'Professor' Hadley - 1881 Colored

John 'The Boston Strong Boy' L. Sullivan - 1882 Traditional Lineal

George 'Old Chocolate' Godfrey - 1883 Colored

American Era

'The Great' John L. Sullivan - 1885

Peter 'The Great' Jackson - 1888 Colored

'Gentleman Jim' James J. Corbett - 1892

Peter Maher - 1895 Alternative Lineal

Bob 'The King of the Battle Royal' Armstrong - 1896 Colored

'Ruby' Robert James Fitzsimmons - 1897

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1898

George Byers - 1898

Klon***e - 1899

James 'The Boilermaker' J. Jeffries - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1901

Ed 'The Colorado Giant' Martin - 1902

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1903

Marvin 'The Louisville Plumber' Hart - 1905

Jack Palmer - 1905 NSC

Noah Brusso a.k.a. Tommy 'The Little Giant of Hanover' Burns - 1906

Gunner Moir - 1906 NSC

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1908

Sam McVea - 1909

Iron Hague - 1909 NSC

Sam Langford - 1909 NSC

Jeremiah "Joe" Jeannette - 1909

Samuel 'Boston Bonecrusher' Langford - 1910

Al Palzer - 1911

Billy Wells - 1911 NSC

Sam McVea - 1911

Sam 'Boston Tar Baby' Langford - 1912

Luther McCarty - 1913 White

Arthur Pelkey - 1913 White

Edward 'Gunboat' Smith - 1914 White

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1914 Colored

Georges 'The Orchid Man' Carpentier - 1914 White

Sam 'Boston Terror' Langford - 1914 Colored

Jess 'Pottawatomie Giant' Willard - 1915 Traditional Lineal

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1916 Colored

Sam 'Greatest Fighter Nobody Knows' Langford - 1916

'Big' Bill Tate - 1917

Sam 'Boston' Langford - 1917

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1918

Jack 'The Manassa Mauler' Dempsey - 1919

Frank Goddard - 1919 NSC

Joe Beckett - 1921 NSC

James Joseph Tunney a.k.a Gene 'The Fighting Marine' Tunney - 1926

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1926

(Lawrence Samuel) 'Loopin'' Larry Gains - 1928

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1930

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1931

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1931

Joseph Paul Zukauskas a.k.a Jack 'Sharkboy' Sharkey - 1932

Primo Carnera - 1933

'Bearcat' Obie Dia Walker - 1933

Maximilian Adelbert Baer - 1934

James J. (Walter) 'Pride of the Irish' Braddock - 1935

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1935

'Loopin' Larry Gains - 1935

Joseph 'The Brown Bomber' Louis Barrow - 1937

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1949

Lee 'The Battling Bartender' Savold (Hulver) - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1951

Arnold Raymond Cream a.k.a Jersey Joe Walcott - 1951

Rocco Francis Marchegiano a.k.a Rocky 'The Brockton Blockbuster' Marciano - 1952

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1956

Ingemar 'The Hammer of Tho' Johansson - 1959

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1960

Charles L. 'Sonny' 'The Big Bear' Liston - 1962

Cassius 'The Louisville Lip' Clay - 1964

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1964

Ernie Terrell - 1965

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1967

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1968

Jimmy (Albert) Ellis - 1968

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1970

'Big' George (Edward) Foreman - 1973

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1974

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

Ken 'The Jaw Breaker'(Howard) Norton - 1978

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1978

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1978

'Big' John Tate - 1979

Mike 'Hercules'(Dwayne) Weaver - 1980

Michael (Marshall) 'Dynamite' Dokes (Doakes) - 1982

Gerhardus 'Gerrie' 'The Bionic Hand' Christian Coetzee - 1983

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1983

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1984

'Pink' Pinklon Thomas - 1984

Greg Page - 1984

Tony 'TNT' Tubbs - 1985

Michael 'Jinx' Spinks - 1985

Trevor Berbick - 1985

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1986

James 'Bonecrusher' Smith - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1987

Tony 'TNT' Tucker - 1987

Mike Tyson - 1987

Francesco Damiani - 1989

James 'Buster' Douglas - 1990

Evander 'The Real Dea' Holyfield - 1990

Ray 'Merciless' Mercer - 1991

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1992

Tommy 'The Duke' Morrison - 1993

Michael Bentt - 1993

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1993

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1994

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1994

Oliver 'The Atomic Bull' McCall - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1995

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1995

Bruce 'The Atlantic City Express' Seldon - 1995

Frank Bruno - 1995

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1996

Henry Adetokunboh Akinwande - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson- 1996

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1996

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1997

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1997

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1997

Vitali 'Dr. Ironfist' Klitschko - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1999

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2000

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 2000

Wladimir 'Dr. Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2000

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2001

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion'Lewis - 2002

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2002

Roy 'Captain Hook' Jones, Jr. - 2003

Corrie 'The Sniper' Sanders - 2003

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2004

Lamon 'Relentless' Brewster - 2004

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2004

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2005

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2005

Siarhei 'The White Wolf' Liakhovich - 2006

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2006

Oleg 'The Big O' Maskaev - 2006

Shannon 'The Cannon' Briggs - 2006

Ruslan 'The White Tyson' Chagaev - 2007

Sultan(-Ahmed Magomedsalihovich) Ibragimov - 2007

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2008

Samuel Okon Peter - 2008

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2008

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2008

David 'The Hayemaker' Haye - 2009

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2011

Alexander 'Sasha' Povetkin - 2011

Bermane 'B.Ware' Stiverne - 2014

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2014

Deontay 'The Bronze Bomber' Wilder - 2015

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2015

'Prince' Charles Martin - 2016

Lucas 'Big Daddy' Browne - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2016

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2016

Joseph (Dennis) Parker - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2017

(Mahmoud Omeirat) Manuel 'Diamond Boy' Charr - 2017

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2018

(Andrés Ponce) Andy "Destroyer" Ruiz Jr. - 2019

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2019

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2020

Trevor "The Dream" Cosmo Bryan Jr. - 2021

Oleksandr "The Cat" (Oleksandrovych) Usyk - 2021





Empirical? Assuming no mistakes were made it is empirical? There is nothing subjective about this list?

On the other side of things, if you put a name and date into google you're going to get champion status in your search results and so how is it subjective?



I didn't mean for this list to be a lineal only list but lineal is in it of course. Is the lineal bit more empirical than the body titles or newspaper titles?

"On the other side of things, if you put a name and date into google you're going to get champion status in your search results and so how is it subjective?"

If you google, "Top 10 boxers pound for pound" You will get a selection of different lists and they will all be subjective.

"Is it possible for a fact to be as ambivalent as emotions? One can feel joy and melancholy at once, perhaps a state of a thing can be both empirical and subjective? "

Some of history's greatest thinkers spent their lives pondering upon that question without finding a definitive answer.

But history's greatest be damned ... this is BoxingScene!

Come on guys, tell us the answer!

Great work with that list, btw.

[kafkod]

Lol. I'll bite.

So what, Mr. History denying alt theorist, is your acertion here? That the Heavyweight championship is a myth outside of the belts that the WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO, etc. Hand out?
Let's not lose sight of the issue while we sling insuts.

All I'm saying is that there is a difference between historical facts and ideas based upon those facts. People can disagree about how important or meaningful the alphabet titles are, but there is no argument about who holds them at any given time. Not so with the lineal title, as this thread proves.

And if you want to talk about history, you should remember that Tyson Fury is the only fighter in boxing history who claimed to be the lineal champion without holding at least one of the alphabet belts.

[Toffee]

And if you want to talk about history, you should remember that Tyson Fury is the only fighter in boxing history who claimed to be the lineal champion without holding at least one of the alphabet belts.

I can think of a couple in the last 30 years to hold that distinction.

Foreman was introduced as a champion without belts. Briggs wasn't.

Neither quite marketed it like Fury.

[Roadblock]

If Tyson wasnt so big he probably doesn't win a title, this is the era of the giants and should be in a new SHW division, fans call TC crazy and cant win going up 20lbs, Inoue cant go up to Davis yet guys give tyson up to 60lbs or more, at a what point doesn't weight matter or are weight bullies only held to that if you don't like them if and they are bigger. As far as skills speed and straight up fighting this era is the worst HW era I ve seen in 50yrs, the people pumping up these giants are fans from the same era because that's all they know, I find it very hard to believe an old time boxing fan could be excited with today's HWs, in my eyes the rest of boxing have improved a lot, while the HWs have gone backwards, they are like the Sumo of boxing the bigger you are the more chance you have.

I barely watch the HWs today because there is very few skills and fighting that I like to see from real boxers like the best of the lower divisions.

[dan-b]

I can think of a couple in the last 30 years to hold that distinction.

Foreman was introduced as a champion without belts. Briggs wasn't.

Neither quite marketed it like Fury.

Michael Spinks was introduced as 'recognised by many to be the true heavyweight champion' (or words to that effect) before the Tyson fight.