Will A Win Over Roy Give Hopkins A Better Legacy Than Jones?

[djtmal]

Yeah true but I think the point is that the victory, while a good one (I'm not disregarding it by any means), is not indicative of what the outcome of a prime Jones Jnr vs. a prime B-Hop would be and therefore shouldn't be used as the deciding factor in these Hopkins - Jones debates.

Also when talking about them being youngsters at the time you gotta take into consideration that Roy's style lends it's self to youth, while B-Hop's was one that was only ever gonna sweeten with age. I think that Roy is a better reflection of Jones Jnr's ability than that Bernard is a reflection of Hopkins' eventual ability. The fight happened the better part of a decade before I believe Hopkins begun the peak of his career and ability, while Jones Jnr was significantly closer to becoming pretty much as good as he'd ever be.

i disagree...they were evenly matched and jones was the better fighter...he believed enough in his ability to challenge himself, while hopkins felt it was safer to lay low and rack up defenses in a weak middleweight division..

[S.G.]

i disagree...they were evenly matched and jones was the better fighter...he believed enough in his ability to challenge himself, while hopkins felt it was safer to lay low and rack up defenses in a weak middleweight division..

In 1993 Jones was better than Hopkins. Fair enough, I agree with that, he proved it in the ring after all. I think Hopkins' improvement was far steeper from that point onwards though.


Hopkins' middleweight record is hardly weak. The two men just followed different paths to greatness (although Hopkins has moved up in weight successfully since and Jones had his run of defenses). Jones challenged himself with moving up in weight but never fully commited himself to it. His "hit & run" acquisition of a heavyweight strap - fighting Ruiz instead of Lewis, not sticking around afterwards, etc.; never facing Benn, Eubank, Nunn at SMW; Michalczewski-gate at LHW... There are pieces of the puzzle missing all over the place. I could use that as an argument for Jones not "believing enough in his ability to challenge himself" also.

[IMDAZED]

In 1993 Jones was better than Hopkins. Fair enough, I agree with that, he proved it in the ring after all. I think Hopkins' improvement was far steeper from that point onwards though.

Hopkins' middleweight record is hardly weak. The two men just followed different paths to greatness (although Hopkins has moved up in weight successfully since and Jones had his run of defenses). Jones challenged himself with moving up in weight but never fully commited himself to it. His "hit & run" acquisition of a heavyweight strap - fighting Ruiz instead of Lewis, not sticking around afterwards, etc.; never facing Benn, Eubank, Nunn at SMW; Michalczewski-gate at LHW... There are pieces of the puzzle missing all over the place. I could use that as an argument for Jones not "believing enough in his ability to challenge himself" also.

This is a strange argument. He never fully committed himself? When did he go back to 160? Moving up to fight an elite pound for pounder in Toney was worse than staying at 160 to fight the Andrew Councils of the world? Moving up to 175, unifying and defending the titles countless times isn't a bad thing either. Missing pieces all over the place? One fighter began at 177, the other at 156. So tell me, what was Hopkins doing while Jones was missing pieces?

[Dr. Ironfist]

Many see Hopkins as being the all roundgreater fighter. Jones was jst better prime for prime, but what you do when you are far out of your prime matters too. This is what made Ali the greatest HW ahead of Joe Louis.

Like getting knocked down by Chuck Wepner, losing to a guy with 6 wins? quitting in his corner. Getting gift decisions because he was "Ali" over the likes of Shavers, Norton and Young. THen dodging Young because he knew he was waxed by him...what a great legacy the cheater Ali had. Had to cheat to beat a 188 pounder. And Max Schmelling beat Joe Louis, Vitali would KO1 both these jokes.

[rskumm21]

Hopkins legacy is already 5 times better than Jones.

[THE REED]

In 1993 Jones was better than Hopkins. Fair enough, I agree with that, he proved it in the ring after all. I think Hopkins' improvement was far steeper from that point onwards though.


Hopkins' middleweight record is hardly weak. The two men just followed different paths to greatness (although Hopkins has moved up in weight successfully since and Jones had his run of defenses). Jones challenged himself with moving up in weight but never fully commited himself to it. His "hit & run" acquisition of a heavyweight strap - fighting Ruiz instead of Lewis, not sticking around afterwards, etc.; never facing Benn, Eubank, Nunn at SMW; Michalczewski-gate at LHW... There are pieces of the puzzle missing all over the place. I could use that as an argument for Jones not "believing enough in his ability to challenge himself" also.

I would have WAY more of a problem if he moved up to 168 and fought chris eubank and nigel benn and NEVER fought James Toney...

Michael Nunn was stopped by James Toney, who Roy Jones beat.

Steve Collins already had 3 losses on his record 2 were title fights at 160 by the time roy even got to SMW... he beat eubank and benn... meanwhile roys beating james toney

Nigel benn? had 3 losses in a row before roy even LEFT smw... and lost both his title fights... this is before roy jones ever left the division. Roy KOED malinga, who WENT ON to beat Nigel Benn.

Mclellan was KOED by Benn while roy was still in the division, and then beats a nobody to get another belt

Chris Eubank lost both his title fights to Collins WHILE roy was still in the SMW division..


it isnt that i wouldnt of liked to see these fights, or these arent good fighters... but the fact is when roy moved to SMW, he took on the absolute best fighter in the division... meanwhile these other fighters are losing title fights...these fighters needed roy, roy did not these fighters.

Would it have been nice for roy to unify the division? sure of course... but he fought and beat the #1 fighter in the division.... who was UNBEATEN, and RANKED 2nd pound for pound.

HARDLY... not believing in his abilities.

The Darius thing, I blame both fighters... would have loved to see this fight, but Roy beat Gonzalez and didnt lose a round... Darius had a TIGHT fight with Gonzalez and lost, on top of having two tough fights with Richard Hall... a fighter Roy completely and utterly embarassed.

[street bully]

Like what I said prime for prime Roy would be better, since in his prime he just had super human speed and reflexes. However, I believe that what makes the fighter is how the come back from adversity, how they redinifne themselves after their natural youthful abilities wear off. This shows you who is a student of the game, and who is not capeable of changing up. In his prime while Roy was faster, Hopkins had great speed and was the quickest MW in the division, he also had 15 round stamina, and would use defense, and a high workrate to wear opponents down and stop them. As he got in his 30s he changed his style up because he was not as fast as he used to be, and started to use much more movement, and box from the outside, and disrupt opponents rythem, albeit still having a rather high workrate, and borderline dirty inside game. As he reached his 40s his stamina without a doubt is lower than it used to be, and his workrate is also lower due to his age, but he changed his style up once again. He now chooses to be economical use angles, foot placement, and his brain to win fights, when he is almost always physically outmatched by his opponents. This is why career wise I see Hopkins slightly higher than Jones, because as soon as Jones slowed down, he could no longer compete on the elite level. Both are great fighters, but I think Hopkins ability to rebuild himself is much harder than fighting the same way when it clearly will not work any more. This is also why Ali is seen as the greatest HW, his youthfull super speed and reflexes slowed down, so he fought like a new fighter to face the best when he was not at his best, and beat them.

It is a matter of taste though, and in his prime Roy was untouchable, but more than just your prime makes a fighter.

[IMDAZED]

I would have WAY more of a problem if he moved up to 168 and fought chris eubank and nigel benn and NEVER fought James Toney...

Michael Nunn was stopped by James Toney, who Roy Jones beat.

Steve Collins already had 3 losses on his record 2 were title fights at 160 by the time roy even got to SMW... he beat eubank and benn... meanwhile roys beating james toney

Nigel benn? had 3 losses in a row before roy even LEFT smw... and lost both his title fights... this is before roy jones ever left the division. Roy KOED malinga, who WENT ON to beat Nigel Benn.

Mclellan was KOED by Benn while roy was still in the division, and then beats a nobody to get another belt

Chris Eubank lost both his title fights to Collins WHILE roy was still in the SMW division..


it isnt that i wouldnt of liked to see these fights, or these arent good fighters... but the fact is when roy moved to SMW, he took on the absolute best fighter in the division... meanwhile these other fighters are losing title fights...these fighters needed roy, roy did not these fighters.

Would it have been nice for roy to unify the division? sure of course... but he fought and beat the #1 fighter in the division.... who was UNBEATEN, and RANKED 2nd pound for pound.

HARDLY... not believing in his abilities.

Steve Collins lost to Reggie Johnson who Jones beat. Different time frames? Yes but somehow it doesn't stop people from bringing up Glen Johnson when comparing Hopkins and Jones.

Thulani Malinga defeated Nigel Benn, Omar Sheika and barely lost on points to an undefeated Chris Eubank but was flattened in six by Jones.

Jones' resume is underrated, if that's even possible.

[IMDAZED]

Like what I said prime for prime Roy would be better, since in his prime he just had super human speed and reflexes. However, I believe that what makes the fighter is how the come back from adversity, how they redinifne themselves after their natural youthful abilities wear off. This shows you who is a student of the game, and who is not capeable of changing up. In his prime while Roy was faster, Hopkins had great speed and was the quickest MW in the division, he also had 15 round stamina, and would use defense, and a high workrate to wear opponents down and stop them. As he got in his 30s he changed his style up because he was not as fast as he used to be, and started to use much more movement, and box from the outside, and disrupt opponents rythem, albeit still having a rather high workrate, and borderline dirty inside game. As he reached his 40s his stamina without a doubt is lower than it used to be, and his workrate is also lower due to his age, but he changed his style up once again. He now chooses to be economical use angles, foot placement, and his brain to win fights, when he is almost always physically outmatched by his opponents. This is why career wise I see Hopkins slightly higher than Jones, because as soon as Jones slowed down, he could no longer compete on the elite level.

Jones slowed down well before the second Tarver fight. It was evident a couple years earlier but he still managed to be successful and even move to heavyweight. What hurt him more than age was the weight loss.

[THE REED]

Like what I said prime for prime Roy would be better, since in his prime he just had super human speed and reflexes. However, I believe that what makes the fighter is how the come back from adversity, how they redinifne themselves after their natural youthful abilities wear off. This shows you who is a student of the game, and who is not capeable of changing up. In his prime while Roy was faster, Hopkins had great speed and was the quickest MW in the division, he also had 15 round stamina, and would use defense, and a high workrate to wear opponents down and stop them. As he got in his 30s he changed his style up because he was not as fast as he used to be, and started to use much more movement, and box from the outside, and disrupt opponents rythem, albeit still having a rather high workrate, and borderline dirty inside game. As he reached his 40s his stamina without a doubt is lower than it used to be, and his workrate is also lower due to his age, but he changed his style up once again. He now chooses to be economical use angles, foot placement, and his brain to win fights, when he is almost always physically outmatched by his opponents. This is why career wise I see Hopkins slightly higher than Jones, because as soon as Jones slowed down, he could no longer compete on the elite level.

Luckily for Roy, by the time this happened he had already accomplished so much... and dont just credit it to Roy simply "slowing down", dropping two weight classes and being knocked out twice would slow down anyones "comeback from adversity."

Which also didnt happen until he was 35... he was 49-1 at that point.

Hopkins may have done better later in his career, but Roy did better earlier in his career.