Comments Thread For: Jake Paul: I'm One of The Most Valuable Boxers in This Sport

[Lomadeaux]

I don't know why you clowns give this guy any credibility by talking about him.

[billeau2]

I'm a traditionalist, so all of this talk about a Youtuber somehow taking the boxing world by storm doesn't sit well with me. I mean, he KO'd a former mma fighter who just got started in boxing. I would say that striking in mma differs from the technique of boxing. Also, Woodley took the Paul fight on two weeks notice. He was motivated by money and ego, thinking he could come back and get revenge for losing the first fight by decision. As for exposing mma fighters, there is talk of Paul taking on Anderson Silva next. I guarantee he'll have his hands full with him.

Paul has shown a way boxers could promote. It would make for elimating the middle man promoters by making them much less important. That to me is his contribution to boxing. I used to think that striking was different as well... I must say though, I now think this is an excuse. MMA tells us technique is evolving when techniques are used effecively for the ring, but what I often see is poor technique, and eventually... better technique. Driving a side kick properly, the proper angle for a round kick, etc.

Woodley was a professional fighter... he should be able to beat up a content provider who recently started training in boxing.

[billeau2]

MMA is technically deficient because an MMA fighter lost in a boxing match to a much younger, bigger man who has been training exclusively boxing for around 3 years and has access to high level coaching and resources?

You're writing a whole lot of text but I still cant understand what the **** you're talking about.

Well to be fair, its a lot to unpack, I can understand your frustration. I am writing an article about it... and this allows me to treat each point made properly. Here is a synapsis of the points Im trying to make:

1. If you watch MMA from its inception you will see that Helio Gracie, who created the tournament and was the front runner, was a professional fighter, competing against amatuers with varied levels of skill. It so happens that Helio was a technical fighter, who relied on this aspect more than brute force... so an assumption was made that technical ability was part of mma as a whole. In fact, watching the tournament develop and subsequent winners, technical abilities were often secondary to toughness, athletic ability, etc. The result of this, watching the development of mma is that fighters have trended towards being athletic specimens who are gaming the ring and in so doing, there appears to be a lack of certain technical abilities. Training to win in the ring is not necessarily the same as training to develop the most effective technique. Its a different goal.

2. Examples of this include certain subtle things: round kicks thrown at the right angle, side kicks that drive through the knee at the right angle, punching with maximum force, etc.

3. Boxers, before ever getting into a ring, etc learn to punch with maximum effectiveness. Jake Paul learning how to box for 3 years, not a long time at all, was enough for him to punch better than a professional mma fighter... I don't care what coaches and resources one has... for a content provider to have the ability to beat a professional athlete in the ring should tell us something about mma and technical proficiency, at least regarding punching.

[TMLT87]

If you watch MMA from its inception you will see that Helio Gracie, who created the tournament and was the front runner,

Helio Gracie was ****ing 80 years old when UFC 1 happened.....

watching the tournament develop and subsequent winners, technical abilities were often secondary to toughness, athletic ability, etc.

The winners of the tournaments (assuming you mean the UFC tournaments) were almost always the most skilled fighter in the brackets, and the overall skill level very visibly and quickly developed, so I have no idea what you mean. If it was purely about toughness etc why didnt Tank, Goodridge or Varelans win any tournaments? Which tournament winners were less technically developed than Royce?

Examples of this include certain subtle things: round kicks thrown at the right angle, side kicks that drive through the knee at the right angle, punching with maximum force, etc.

Yes, i'm sure the likes of Adesanya, Pereira, Giga, Aldo, Volk, Riddell etc dont know how to throw kicks properly.

for a content provider to have the ability to beat a professional athlete in the ring should tell us something about mma and technical proficiency

That content provider would beat pro boxers in MMA too, what would that tell you about the technical proficiency of boxing?

[SUBZER0ED]

Paul has shown a way boxers could promote. It would make for elimating the middle man promoters by making them much less important. That to me is his contribution to boxing. I used to think that striking was different as well... I must say though, I now think this is an excuse. MMA tells us technique is evolving when techniques are used effecively for the ring, but what I often see is poor technique, and eventually... better technique. Driving a side kick properly, the proper angle for a round kick, etc.

Woodley was a professional fighter... he should be able to beat up a content provider who recently started training in boxing.

I think what Paul is doing is successful widely because it's a novelty item- A social media personality who is relatively new to boxing, challenging retired celebrities of various sports to boxing matches. I don't know that his business model will catch on to mainstream boxing. I disagree about mma striking being the same as boxing. Way back in the day, Bruce Lee incorporated American boxing technique (along with several other fighting techniques) into his Jeet Kune Do. While there may be similarities in various fighting styles, each discipline has its own unique nuances, intentions and techniques.

Again, Woodley took the Paul rematch with two weeks notice. Also, while he's a former professional fighter, he's nearly 40 years old. Paul is 24. In 19 wins, Woodley had 7 KOs while he was a mma fighter, so he's hardly a power puncher. Finally, Tyrone's disciplines from his prime years are wrestling and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. So while he's likely leagues above Paul in terms of mma, his lack of actual boxing experience coupled with his age and short preparation time, put him at a marked disadvantage.

[Street]

Celebrity boxing is good for the sport and it's fun to watch. It's the sport in evolution if you think about it. Plus it keeps the alphabet soup boxing organizations out of the picture.

[billeau2]

Helio Gracie was ****ing 80 years old when UFC 1 happened.....




The winners of the tournaments (assuming you mean the UFC tournaments) were almost always the most skilled fighter in the brackets, and the overall skill level very visibly and quickly developed, so I have no idea what you mean. If it was purely about toughness etc why didnt Tank, Goodridge or Varelans win any tournaments? Which tournament winners were less technically developed than Royce?



Yes, i'm sure the likes of Adesanya, Pereira, Giga, Aldo, Volk, Riddell etc dont know how to throw kicks properly.



That content provider would beat pro boxers in MMA too, what would that tell you about the technical proficiency of boxing?

Sorry meant Royce Gracie.

Come on... the original UFC fighters were not professionally trained for one thing, not one of them were as technically proficient as Royce Gracie. Yes they developed quickly, which is also my point. Toughness is more than just brawling, or being one dimensional. Watch Rorion Gracie in the tournaments in Brazil. Its not about throwing kicks properly, its about the ability to maximize kicks... and the assumption this is done in the ring.

[billeau2]

I think what Paul is doing is successful widely because it's a novelty item- A social media personality who is relatively new to boxing, challenging retired celebrities of various sports to boxing matches. I don't know that his business model will catch on to mainstream boxing. I disagree about mma striking being the same as boxing. Way back in the day, Bruce Lee incorporated American boxing technique (along with several other fighting techniques) into his Jeet Kune Do. While there may be similarities in various fighting styles, each discipline has its own unique nuances, intentions and techniques.

Again, Woodley took the Paul rematch with two weeks notice. Also, while he's a former professional fighter, he's nearly 40 years old. Paul is 24. In 19 wins, Woodley had 7 KOs while he was a mma fighter, so he's hardly a power puncher. Finally, Tyrone's disciplines from his prime years are wrestling and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. So while he's likely leagues above Paul in terms of mma, his lack of actual boxing experience coupled with his age and short preparation time, put him at a marked disadvantage.

Possibly. Does beng older and on short notice take that much away from a professional like Woodley's game, assuming he is not in with another professional? I don't know, you may be correct.

Paul could change boxing for the better 10 times over... Im serious. Its so self evident that it hurts. I see guys like these youger fighters who have presence... and then I see the Paul Brothers... the type of guys that I would have laughed at in high school/college... I mean if they can do it themselves through social media, why can't a fighter? Then fans could arrainge the fights and not the crap that won't die like King and Arum... and the other sycophants that destroy the sport.

[TMLT87]

Sorry meant Royce Gracie.

Come on... the original UFC fighters were not professionally trained for one thing, not one of them were as technically proficient as Royce Gracie. Yes they developed quickly, which is also my point. Toughness is more than just brawling, or being one dimensional. Watch Rorion Gracie in the tournaments in Brazil. Its not about throwing kicks properly, its about the ability to maximize kicks... and the assumption this is done in the ring.

Define "professionally trained" in that context? at the time Royce was winning there was no such thing as "MMA" to even be trained in, what you had was a bunch of guys from various forms of combat entering an open arena to try and prove their style was the best. Some of them were random delusional bums who never had a fight in their lives before but had black belts in made up ****, some of them were legitimate high level competitive athletes from major combat sports like wrestling, boxing, kickboxing and judo. Over time the random bums got weeded out, the legit guys became more numerous and everyone realised they needed to train multiple styles to survive in that environment, giving birth to MMA. I suspect thats why Royce got the **** out of there after only 18 months.

[billeau2]

Define "professionally trained" in that context? at the time Royce was winning there was no such thing as "MMA" to even be trained in, what you had was a bunch of guys from various forms of combat entering an open arena to try and prove their style was the best. Some of them were random delusional bums who never had a fight in their lives before but had black belts in made up ****, some of them were legitimate high level competitive athletes from major combat sports like wrestling, boxing, kickboxing and judo. Over time the random bums got weeded out, the legit guys became more numerous and everyone realised they needed to train multiple styles to survive in that environment, giving birth to MMA. I suspect thats why Royce got the **** out of there after only 18 months.

Professional means fighting for money. The Gracies have a long history of fighting professional tournaments in Brazil. The Gracies trained 24/7 while virtually all of the other fighters in the tournament fought part time at best. Heres a way to better understand my point: Try to find any evidence of a professional Thai boxer, or boxer, fighting in a Gracie event, anywhere... Kickboxers often claimed to be Thai fighters... not even remotely the same thing. Also, wrestling, Judo fighters and anything goes fighters (Vale Tudo), even Lute Livre fighters (Brazilian joint locking art) actually had, prior to the UFC a long history of winning against the Gracies in competitions in Brazil.

You make a lot of assumptions: Those random bums were hardly exemplory of the arts they represented. Even the Karate so called fighter, who claimed to be a student of John Blumes ( a very competant fighting man in Karate) was really sketchy, and did not fight like a Karate stylist in the ring... I know this as someone who studied karate for over 18 years in a fighting club... You do not bounce around the ring fighting karate... And while it is assumed that people needed to train multiple styles to compete in fact what really happened was: people had to learn specific techniques that allowed them to work well in the ring. So for example, they did not learn Ju Jitsu so much as how to deal with Ju Jitsu take downs, working through Neo Waza (the ground) through the guard and the mount position. And ditto for Thai boxing, rather they learned a round kick... and did a piss poor job of it compared to a well trained Thai Fighter (just saying).

Royce got out because he was competing with professional athletes that had learned the things they needed to do to defeat the techniques of Gracie Jiu Jitsu in the ring. Royce stubbornly believed he could continue success with just his art and how he had adapted it to the ring.