Don’t Go Away Mad, Shane… Just Go Away

[ugly2000]

You respect my opinion but just because i have Puero Rico all over my avatar i might be biased??? Didn't quite understand that.

Any way if you look at my previous post, you will notice that my style in this forum is not the same as other and you can try to reason with me.

My response was towards your point of view comparing the triology of fighters between Ali, Foreman and Frazier and mentioning Mosley, same as Ali as the last man standing from that "trio".
The fact is that between Cotto Mosley and even PBF or whoever must be added, the story is yet to be finished and while the only ones that have faced each other have been Cotto and Mosley, being that Cotto DID beat Mosley Cotto should at this moment have the advantage, even if Mosley beat Margarito who beat* Cotto (note the asterisk on beat).

Stlyes make fight and even though Foreman ko Frazier who had beat Ali, didn't mean that Foreman was better right??

Anyway these are all opinions but the only fact is that Cotto did give Mosley a chance and did beat him also.

If you feel that i'm wrong you can go ahead and try to prove me wrong, but what you won't get from me is any insults or curses, becasue I treat people the same way I like to be treated, and when that doesn't happen I just ignore the poster.

Peace!!!!

Alright cool, this is the way I see it. To me when a Fighter is ranked number one I consider him to be champion of the division and for a brief while Cotto was that fighter. He lost to Margarito who in turned lost to Mosley. There is lineage there. Just becuase Cotto defeated Mosley a year earlier doesnt make him the top dog. In boxing history there have been countless champions who lost early in their careers. When they became champions no one said your not the best the guy who beat you in your 12th pro fight is the best. That makes no sense. Back to the Ali/ Frazier/ Foreman comparison which we really shouldnt be using cause Ali defeated Frazier before beating Foreman. Even if Ali hadnt of beaten Frazier he still would of been recognized as number one. Just like Mosley should and is viewed by many today. It all comes down to something very simple you have to beat the man who beat the man to be the man.

[prsi]

Alright cool, this is the way I see it. To me when a Fighter is ranked number one I consider him to be champion of the division and for a brief while Cotto was that fighter. He lost to Margarito who in turned lost to Mosley. There is lineage there. Just becuase Cotto defeated Mosley a year earlier doesnt make him the top dog. In boxing history there have been countless champions who lost early in their careers. When they became champions no one said your not the best the guy who beat you in your 12th pro fight is the best. That makes no sense. Back to the Ali/ Frazier/ Foreman comparison which we really shouldnt be using cause Ali defeated Frazier before beating Foreman. Even if Ali hadnt of beaten Frazier he still would of been recognized as number one. Just like Mosley should and is viewed by many today. It all comes down to something very simple you have to beat the man who beat the man to be the man.

Good post and it has sense. But starting from bottom to top, you say that Mosley is the "man" so why go to a third person Cotto beat the "man" (Mosley) to be the man and it was not like it was several years ago. That he lost to Margarito, like I said it has an * and also styles make fights, which brings me to your next subject about Ali and others. I just used the comparison to back up my theory about how one beating the other should not have direct affect or influence of the outcome of the third involved until they actually fight (again in Cotto-Mosley's case).

True that there is a lineage due to the Margarito outcome, I grant you that, specially on how dominate Mosley was against Margarito, but there's no bigger lineage or comparisson tool (lineage) that a fight between both fighers that resulted in a victory in Cotto's favor.

At this point I'm willing to accept that they are close to be even as a top dog at WW due to the circumstances you described and i respect your opinion, as a matter of fact if Mosley beats Clottey, that lineage will put the level in Mosley's favor even if Cotto beat Pacman because Pacman is not a true WW.

One other thing that you have to keep in mind is that Cotto has faced better and more competition (Quintana, Urkal, Judah, Mosley, Gomez, Maragrito, Jenning and Clottey) in the last 4 years at WW than Mosley (David Estrada, Jose Luis Cruz, Collazo, Cotto, Mayorga and Magarito) having both only one defeat. That will give Cotto a 8-1 record but with a victory over Mosley and Mosley's record will be 6-1 with a victory over Margarito who beat Cotto, but with a lost against Cotto himself.

Edit to this post:
Mayorga should not be included because this fight was at 154 therfore Mosley record at WW is actually 4-1 and Cotto's is 7-1 in the last 4 years

[Iceta]

Good pot and it has sense. But starting from bottom to top, you say tat Mosley is the "man" so why go to a third person Cotto beat the "man" (Mosley) to be the man and it was not liek it was svereal years ago. That he lost to Margarito, like I said it has an * and also styles make fights, which brings me to your next subject about Ali and others. I just used the comparison to back up my theory about how one beating the other should not have direct affect or influence of the outcome of the third involved until they actually fight (again in Cotto-Mosley's case).

True that there is a lineage due to the Margarito outcome, I grant you that, specially on how dominate Mosley was against Margarito, but there's no bigger lineage or comparisson tool (lineage) that a fight between both fighers that resulted in a victory in Cotto's favor.

At this point I'm willing to accept that they are close to be even as a top dog at WW due to the circumstances you described and i respect your opinion, as a matter of fact if Mosley beats Clottey, that lineage will put the level in Mosley's favor even if Cotto beat Pacman because Pacman is not a true WW.

One other thing that you have to keep in mind is that Cotto has faced better and more competition (Quintana, Urkal, Judah, Mosley, Gomez, Maragrito, Jenning and Clottey) in the last 4 years at WW than Mosley (David Estrada, Jose Luis Cruz, Collazo, Cotto, Mayorga and Magarito) having both only one defeat. That will give Cotto a 8-1 record but with a victory over Mosley and Mosley's record will be 6-1 with a victory over Margarito who beat Cotto, but with a lost against Cotto himself.

I can't co-sign on this one when it comes to your last paragraph other than Mosley's defeat to Cotto. I think that Mayorga and Collazo are better fighters than Urkal, Gomez, and Jennings put together. Cotto just has the quantity and Mosley has the quality. And then you have to factor Mosley's destruction over Margarito and Cotto's loss to him. And now Mosley is going to have Clottey on his resume, which will look better than Cotto's victory over him if Mosley beats him more impressively.

[philb]

Stop hating on Cotto. Who goes out of their way to hate on Cotto?? He fights everyone. You've never heard of Cotto turning down a fight. Mosley agreed to fight in MSG and he lost. Get over it. If Cotto has such a glass jaw then why couldn't Mosley KO him?! If I recall Vernon Forrest destroyed SSM and put his ass on the canvas way worse than Cotto has ever been put down. Mosley's "tough armor" has him sitting on the outside looking in. And if Cotto beats Pac then he's on his way to a megafight with Mayweather. And Mosley will still be on the outside looking in. IF MOSLEY IS SO TOUGH, WHY DIDN'T HE FIGHT P-WILL???? Neither one of them is a draw so that's not an excuse. Face it, he's salty because he's getting Cotto's leftovers.

Yea aight dawg, after destroying the dude that made ur boy take a "no mas" knee with his face lookin like its been in a meat grinder and mosley all of a sudden is bitter? Cotto should be thankin mosley for destroyin the dude that crushed his ass and embarrased him in front of his PR fans, so i don't see no reason for saltyness on his part, all the people i've heard call mosley salty are just ironically "salty" forum dudes, so who cares, we'll see what they both do in the ring next right, thats what matters right? Besides u bring vernon (RIP) into this, i'm glad, cause vernon beat him in amateurs, and vernon was avoided at the time and mosley took him on, twice!! I didn't see cotto runnin back for a rematch w/ marg and noone wanted any parts of marg after that until who came along? exactly!!! Go look at mosley's Boxrec dawg, no tko's!! He has never been stopped, knocked down but not stopped, so ur argument proves to be flimsier than soup sandwich on that note.

No more talk tho bro, just save ur opinions for november 15th, i'll be sure to log on and continue this debate with u......good luck to ur boy cotto tho he will need it, i noticed alot of u cotto bandwagonneers are almost gettin so confident with cotto that u are lookin past manny, im ready for a good laugh...may the best man win tho.

[prsi]

I can't co-sign on this one when it comes to your last paragraph other than Mosley's defeat to Cotto. I think that Mayorga and Collazo are better fighters than Urkal, Gomez, and Jennings put together. Cotto just has the quantity and Mosley has the quality. And then you have to factor Mosley's destruction over Margarito and Cotto's loss to him. And now Mosley is going to have Clottey on his resume, which will look better than Cotto's victory over him if Mosley beats him more impressively.

I agree with you on the Mosley vs Clottey and how it will give Mosley the edge as the top WW. I even said that in my post.

But you bringing the Mayorga to the table does not apply, because what i was discussing and i even made clear was about the WW division, not their carreer overall. IMO opinion Shane Mosley has enough resume today to be a HOF and Cotto still has to work on his to get to that level. But Mayorga don't count on the discussion and debate i was having with UGLY (poster) because Mayorga was at 154 not 147.

Having cleared that out for you and admiting that Mosley's overall resume is bigger at the moment than Cotto's, will you agree to my point that for the last 4 years at WW and WW only, Cotto has a better resume??? Which was what actually I was referring to.

Correction to my post:

Mayorga at 154 Collazo at 147 so Collazo does count but not Mayorga. That wll bring Mosley's record at WW in the last 4 years to 4 win and 1 lost an Cotto's record is 7-1

[robertolarocca]

Lyle is a Moron...

A good freind of mine has just made me aware that Lyle "Cry-Baby" Fitzsimmonds or what the hell ever this clown's name is...replied back like 3rd grade child with his feelings hurt after my friend gave him hell about his hate-on article about Sugar Shane Mosley...

There's a comment made here by the person who goes under the alias as " UFIRST"...I love his coment to this Fitsimmons *******

Lyle doesn't know jack-**** about boxing because Everyone & their dog knows that Sugar Shane IS THE MAN...!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lyle..kiss my ass you MORON!!!!!!!!

[philb]

I agree with you on the Mosley vs Clottey and how it will give Mosley the edge as the top WW. I even said that in my post.

But you bringing the Mayorga and Collazo to the table does not apply, because what i was discussing and i even made clear was about the WW division, not their carreer overall. IMO opinion Shane Mosley has enough resume today to be a HOF and Cotto still has to work on his to get to that level. But Collazo and Mayorga don't count on the discussion and debate i was having with UGLY (poster) because Collazo and Mayorga was at 154 not 147.

Having cleared that out for you and admiting that Mosley's overall resume is bigger at the moment than Cotto's, will you agree to my point that for the last 4 years at WW and WW only, Cotto has a better resume??? Which was what actually I was referring to.

Well i don't agree with the last 4 yrs in regards to cotto's opposition. Besides the good opposition so far resulted in.... Marg pounded him almost into oblivion, and he threw so many hayemakers at margs head and marg ate em like lucky charms. What about mosley's punches on margs head, do we need some reminders by someone posting a youtube joint or somethin.....he beat up marg like marg was the judge at his divorce hearing...i felt bad for that dude....and as much as people deny in here, if clottey was a finisher we wouldn't even be having half these ****** debates....we'll see in november tho

[Iceta]

I agree with you on the Mosley vs Clottey and how it will give Mosley the edge as the top WW. I even said that in my post.

But you bringing the Mayorga to the table does not apply, because what i was discussing and i even made clear was about the WW division, not their carreer overall. IMO opinion Shane Mosley has enough resume today to be a HOF and Cotto still has to work on his to get to that level. But Mayorga don't count on the discussion and debate i was having with UGLY (poster) because Mayorga was at 154 not 147.

Having cleared that out for you and admiting that Mosley's overall resume is bigger at the moment than Cotto's, will you agree to my point that for the last 4 years at WW and WW only, Cotto has a better resume??? Which was what actually I was referring to.

Correction to my post:

Mayorga at 154 Collazo at 147 so Collazo does count but not Mayorga.

I'd have to see a fight between Collazo and Zab or a fight between Quintana and Collazo before I made the determination of who has the better resume at 147 between Cotto and Mosley if you really want me to give you my least biased opinion.

[philb]

I'd have to see a fight between Collazo and Zab or a fight between Quintana and Collazo before I made the determination of who has the better resume at 147 between Cotto and Mosley if you really want me to give you my least biased opinion.

Collazo is a difficult dude to fight, i mean look at berto, lol, he got lucky to get that decision against collazo, and u notice Berto's people are slowly extracting themselves from the promised rematch wit him. I feel bad for dude, he needs to get his belt for real....

On another note, what is the deal with colombian fighters and punching power, i just went on collazo's boxrec real quick and he only has one ko loss....to a colombian Edwin Cassiani....them dudes is beasts!!! Like ricardo torres and the rest of em, they just known for KO power.

[prsi]

I'd have to see a fight between Collazo and Zab or a fight between Quintana and Collazo before I made the determination of who has the better resume at 147 between Cotto and Mosley if you really want me to give you my least biased opinion.

Good enough for me if that's your opinion, I respect it and makes sense.

But in the meantime and IMO with these doubts you described, a 7-1 record does look much better than a 4-1 record specially if that 1 defeat in Mosley's record is a defeat against the guy he's being compared to.

Once again these records are just for WW in the last 4 years