Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Highest ATG Ranking Achievable in Modern Boxing

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by Citizen Koba View Post

    Black Genesis? I thought that was something else... Black Dynamite maybe? The Nat Fleisher one? heard good things but not read it. I'd go for some excerpts if you got it.
    Buddy! You just can-o-worms'd me! Tuck in, I'll try to be quick.

    Black Genesis is by Kevin R Smith. It's the first book in his "Caramel Colored Kings" series. To my knowledge, to date, the series is only BG and Sundowners. Both are excellent though. They are what they sound like and they do get a bit racist in my opinion so if you're avoiding the racism in Nat Fleischer's work it doesn't really do that, BUT, and that's a big but for a reason, what Black Dynamite really is, is plagiarism from Richard K Foxx's The Lives and Battles of Famous Black Pugilists. Which is the first go at bringing all the history of black boxing into one source. I know what I said sounds really controversial but I promise if you ask the IBRO boys they'll agree. They might be less harsh and point out not everything Nat wrote is verbatim from Richard, but, a lot is, and, all of it is plagiarism. There was a period when some of Nat's stories seemed legitimate because you couldn't find the same story told in the same way in Richard's Lives, but, since then we have just so much access to contemporary sources it's safe to say Nat Fleischer filled out his Dynamite series with made up stories only loosely based on reality. For example, Nat's coverage of Sambo Sutton will make Sutton seem a demon of a man. Sambo Sutton and Young Sambo are two different guys and we know it now. So Nat's Sambo kind of exists, in parts, he's part Sambo Sutton and part Young Sambo; a fictional character.

    Lives and Battles itself isn't the best work to source from because what it really is, is a collection of Police Gazette (Owned by Foxx) articles brought together in a book. It's not bad perse, Dynamite isn't either, but more modern books are better or what's even best is doing the research yourself, but, if you can't tell by this post it is a minefield.

    PG was basically Bare Knuckle's Ring mag. Yeah, Nat ripped off dude's book and his magazine. But, point is just based on that you get the jist of quality of info. You wouldn't buy a Ring book that's just a collection of Ring articles and expect each article and narrative to have been properly researched now...I wouldn't think you would anyway...One shouldn't look to the past version and expect any better results.

    Kevin, imo, is a great fan, top notch. He's an IBRO member of course and his boxing historian credentials are as good as any others. He went out of his way, it had to cost a lot both in time and money, to go through the old report direct from sources and cross reference those contemporary sources with the PG articles, Lives, and Dynamite, to set things straight with verified information that seems true because of the wealth of corroboration from the time. That's more than just trying to make a good history book, he's really done us all a huge service.

    Still racist though, in my opinion. I don't understand why I have to read ****reotica to read about old fighters. It's one thing to say something like X looked great and use some nice words to say X looked great but Kev kinda goes into sweat glistening on teak muscles kind of stuff. Maybe he was just going for the former and I took it more latter. It's not a big deal but still worth warning I think.

    The other case, listen man, I read a lot of history. You can never say never and really mean never, never really means so rare it's not worth including, ya know? That sort of never, I never read white men's quotes in phonetics. If a fella is from England, or Kentucky, or, Germany, they all get quoted in well written English. Black fighters get quoted in that ****ed ye-olden ebonics. Now, sure, I'm sure some dudes spoke like that. I'm also sure some white southern men spoke with the southern drawl I don't ever read in phonetics. I'm sure Peter Maher's Irish accent was thick. I'm sure Peter The Great Jackson sounded different to Jack Johnson. You know, one being australian and the other being Texan. There's a ****genous voice used to voice black fighters even favorable authors do not edit away out of respect for the same men they are glowing about. I don't understand. I get keeping history accurate, but, they don't include typos, they don't include colloquials, stumbled words, or missing words/phrases. If it's okay to turn "They say Jimmy is great, [but Jimmy] ain't ****" and know the reader realizes the original did not have "but Jimmy" then why do I have to read "Hu am dat R watey mallon." bullshiz. IMO it's upheld historical racism that does **** all nothing for the narrative or information shared and I'd like to see the next gen authors do away with it. If Peter Jackson once said "Corbett is scared of me." is should read exactly as I wrote it, imo.

    So while Kevin's work should be applauded I do wish he took extra steps to make it less bipolar for lack of a better term. You'll go from ****reotica to upheld historical racism pretty seamlessly. Dude's a good author, it flows well, but a little dialed back on the appreciation for black fighters' bodies and a little more reservation to make them all sound like they're all innocent clueless fools.


    All of that said! I did look through the book a bit while writing this. I think I may have made a mistake. Sundowners is huge, but, I think it the getting lost stories may be from that one. It's a bit later in time, BG is more like 1800s-early 1900s where SD covers from the 1900s through the 1930s. I think Godfrey 2 has a got stranded story so I'll look for it there in a bit. I really wish I had digital versions; ctrl+f is great!
    Citizen Koba likes this.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by HOF Hater View Post

      Spence will NOT be as good at 154 because a large part of his tactics relies on being bigger, taller, and longer. At 154 he loses some of those advantages and he definitely won't be as successful.

      It's hilarious when people want to place Spence Top 10 PFP...hell Boxingscene has Spence #3 and Crawford isn't even on the list. People putting the cart before the horse calling Spence an ATG...truly hilarious
      Spence may not have a choice but to move up. Will we get another Brook (can no longer make WW but ordinary above it) ?
      1st things 1st. Retire Pac and then maybe clean out WW.

      Of the 2, Spence and Bud, Spence definitely has more claim to a P4P spot.

      It's about eye tests and sparring stories in NSB
      HOF Hater likes this.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by BodyBagz View Post

        If Spence retires immediately after his fight with Pac (win or lose), where would you place Spence on the ATG list ????

        NO ONE WANTS TO ANSWER THIS !!!!
        Considerably higher than nelo was when Floyd beat nelo. H2h against take your choice of WWs in history Spence would do well against anyone. Might not beat everyone but he'd give good account for himself. PAC in his prime might be favourite against Spence but outcome isn't a guaranteed win for pac Not sure where you are going with your line of questioning but sounds like a challenge of some sort. Why you playing the big man all the time?
        Last edited by hugh grant; 07-25-2021, 09:03 AM.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by BodyBagz View Post

          Spence may not have a choice but to move up. Will we get another Brook (can no longer make WW but ordinary above it) ?
          1st things 1st. Retire Pac and then maybe clean out WW.

          Of the 2, Spence and Bud, Spence definitely has more claim to a P4P spot.

          It's about eye tests and sparring stories in NSB
          Had me rolling XD XD XD

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by hugh grant View Post

            Considerably higher than nelo was when Floyd beat nelo. H2h against take your choice of WWs in history Spence would do well against anyone. Might not beat everyone but he'd give good account for himself.
            You've had this POV prior to hm fighting Pac or nah

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by HOF Hater View Post

              Had me rolling XD XD XD
              ATGs from the B/W era cracks me up

              [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by BodyBagz View Post

                ATGs from the B/W era cracks me up

                [Content is Protected, Please Register For Free To Unlock This Content]
                The thing is people always pick the oldschool fighters to be contemporary fighters. The fighters in those videos are basic AF...they would get stomped out by even average fighters today. HOWEVER...if the fanboys MEAN oldschool fighters - given access to contemporary training, nutrition, and recovery - would be current fighters...maybe. As it stands though there are only like 5-7 oldschool fighters that seem remotely good lmfao

                Comment


                • #48
                  The Nash says number 1. Let's stop overrating these old guys. Nash out.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by pasawayako View Post
                    Everyone will call pac the GOAT when he beat spence but of course here in nsb some people would think that he isn't yet the GOAT.
                    I have Pac Top 10 EVER...above Floyd.

                    If Pac beats Spence it does inch him up further but I don't have him GOAT just yet. Mainly because I don't think Spence is very good. He had a nail biter with Porter, beat Danny Garcia (whose by no means a world-beater), and stopped Kell Brook. I mean. . .what has Spence done? He's got the PBC marketing behind him but he's far from some legend.

                    Now, if Manny beats Spence and Crawford...??? He's the GOAT. Period. He checks off ALL the boxes.

                    Pac will have transcended the most boxing divisions as champion, EVER.

                    Pac has one of the highest PEAKS, EVER. From his epic 2009 WW run to - more than a decade later - beating the BEST WELTERWEIGHTS AGAIN in Thurman, Spence, and Crawford all above age of 40...!

                    Pac will also have one of the best longevity, EVER.

                    Pac is GOAT if he completes the HATRICK and beats Crawford also. But I wouldn't be mad if someone else had him GOAT already or after beating Spence. Pac has every right to retire...hell he could've retired before Thurman for crying out loud and still been Top 10 ever. He's just putting his name in CEMENT at this point.
                    Last edited by HOF Hater; 07-25-2021, 11:17 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by HOF Hater View Post

                      The thing is people always pick the oldschool fighters to be contemporary fighters. The fighters in those videos are basic AF...they would get stomped out by even average fighters today. HOWEVER...if the fanboys MEAN oldschool fighters - given access to contemporary training, nutrition, and recovery - would be current fighters...maybe. As it stands though there are only like 5-7 oldschool fighters that seem remotely good lmfao
                      Post prime Tex Cobb and Jeff Horn would be considered superhumans
                      HOF Hater likes this.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X
                      TOP