Duran is not a top ten ATG

[slicksouthpaw16]

you have to compare stats when you talk about all-time great rankings:

1. wins -- level of comp
2. losses-- level of comp
3. championship fights (how amny won how many lost)
4. Title Defenses

anything else is subjective and biased.. just stick with the facts of what happened in their careers


I

very poor analogy, since marciano's comp can't be compared to floyd's. floyd moved up in weight just like duran, the only thing you need to do is your homework when it comes to their carers. duran losing to the best fighters of his generation and floyd defeating all of his is very significant in an atg ranking




yes he did, hence the reason why he didn't fight pryor at 140 , and michael nunn at 160.



yes he did that is why he is 1-5 against his peers.



no it wouldn't equal what duran did for the simple fact floyd has surpassed duran in terms of atg accomplishments. the fact that you through out kosta tszyu as a fighter floyd should have fought is pretty lame. kosta got beat by ricky hatton floyd koed ricky in 10...why would floyd need to fight tszyu when he couldn't even beat ricky hatton.

as far as cotto goes he was never in line as floyd's mandatory at 147. neither was willimas or margarito. just remember that 147 is floyd's 4th weight class, what did duran do i his fourth weight class besides beat iran barkley.

and you mention pavlik, that would be floyd's 6th weight class duran only won titles in four. you do know that duran fought at 168 and 175 albeit briefly.

so why would floyd need to win titles in 6 weight classes, uinify 147 his fourth weight class when duran has done nothing comparable in his career. duran didn't unify 160, heck not even 154 or 147. and he damn sure didn't win titles in 5 weight classes that he competeted in. so what's your point again

This is laughable so i really won't take time from my schedule to go through all of this but here is just a few points that i ran across on your ridiculous paragraph. Clearly you haven't seen or paid any attention to Duran.

Tszyu is not a fighter that Mayweather should have fought? Tszyu is a great champion and both were around the same division at the time, why not ( like Duran) move up and make these fights happen. Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time, and he not only unified but completely cleaned the division up and beat every name down there that was willing to fight. That alone could possibly put him above Mayweather. Floyd fought the best when he was at featherweight and junior light weight and that i admit, but where is that in the other divisions that he fought in like 140, 147 and 154? Duran fought everyone in his divisions and its not fair at all to claim hes greater than Duran because he won more title fights. what you have to look at is who he fought in those title fights and who Duran fought in those title fights. I don't see Floyd beating Hagler, Leonard or Hearns to be honest( and i think Benitez would give him the fight of his life as well) , and that's not even half of the great fighters he fought. Since you like going to boxrec, why not take a look at how many great fighters Duran beat at light weight. How come Floyd never fought welterweight champion Margarito even though hes been calling him out for years even before he beat Oscar? Why has he never fought Cotto, Mosley, Williams, Pavlik ect( and instead hes coming out of retirement to fight Manny Pacquaio who is in a smaller weight class)? That is the only way he could be greater than Duran. Now mind you, i always say nothing but good things about Floyd but saying hes greater than Duran is ridiculous. Duran is top 5 of all time on most lists.

[Kid McCoy]

well go do the research...to help get you started :

floyd 18-0 in championship fights, 12 title defenses, 5 titles in 5 weighht classes, 3 lineal/ring titles...retired at 30 undefeated

duran 15-7 in chapionship fights, 12 title defenses, 4 titles in 4 weight classes, 2 ring lineal titles, retired at 50

Floyd 5'9", 72" reach, Duran 5'7", 66" reach. Not a huge amount in it, so a direct comparison is possible, although Floyd's the bigger man.

Now at age 29, Duran is 72-1, 13-0 in title fights, with two world titles, 12 defences.

Floyd at age 29 is 39-0, 18-0 in title fights with 5 non-unified WBC belts, 12 defences.

Difficult to use championship fights as a guage, given the proliferation of them in the alphabet era. These days Duran's non-title fights against DeJesus, the Viruets, Mamby, Villa would all have been with the title on the line, so he'd likely have surpassed Floyd's tally. But Floyd needs all the help he can get in this match up, so I'll let it pass.

Floyd has his best days at 130, Duran at 135. I actually liked Floyd at 130, he fought some good competition, and beat them well, but for one reason or another never managed to unify the division or fight any of the other titlists. From that point on, they diverge, as Duran moves up through the weights and continues to fight the best into his 30s and well above his peak weight, and ends up diluting his title record to 15-6, but still picks up two more titles at 154 and 160, both against bigger, younger prime opponents who were favoured to beat him.

Floyd on the other hand takes the path of least resistance, cherry picking the weakest titlists whilst ignoring bigger, more dangerous and more lucrative challenges. Turns down a shot at the undisputed Judah in favour of facing Gatti, years removed from his prime and his peak weight. Turns down two mega offers to face Margarito. Calls out Winky and then runs and hides and when Winky accepts the challenge. Adds up to about a dozen or so titlists in his own divisions that he's managed not to face.

It's hard to match opponents directly best vs best, since Duran made it all the way to 160 to take on a prime top 5 middleweight, whereas Floyd daren't even take on the top welters. I'll give it a shot nonetheless:

Duran never fought for any titles at 130, but I'm willing to match Marcel, a guy who has been dismissed as a "bum" by those whose sources go no further than Boxrec, against any of Floyd's best at this weight. Floyd certainly never beat anyone who beat a prime Arguello.

DeJesus vs Sosa...Puh-lease.

Buchanan vs Castillo...More competitive than many of the others, as Floyd was still taking on the best at this point. Buchanan is a HOFer and arguably a top twenty 135lber, Castillo isn't, and is just as tough as Castillo, but more skilled. I think he'd tie Castillo in knots.

Benitez vs Gatti... Poor old Gatti

Leonard vs Baldomir... All-time top ten welt vs the 43rd greatest Argentine welt. Hmmmmm, as Pink is wont to say.

Hearns vs Hatton...cruel, just cruel.

Hagler vs De La Hoya...see De La Hoya-Hopkins or De La Hoya-Pacquiao

Barkley vs De La Hoya...see above

You see Floyd's figures look better, but it's easy to look good when you're cherry picking titles, ignoring the other titlists and turning down career-high paydays to fight the best in your division. Duran fought the best throughout his career, even when past his prime and past his peak weight, whereas Floyd hasn't. That's why Duran's a legend among all who understand boxing, whereas Floyd is merely a legend at the WBC and among fanboys.

[Run]

I don't even think it warrants typing a page long justification,

But,

Roberto Duran is one of the top 5 all time fighters at any weight, as well as the greatest Lightweight of all time. I'm sorry, Chief.



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[delipooke]

Floyd 5'9", 72" reach, Duran 5'7", 66" reach. Not a huge amount in it, so a direct comparison is possible, although Floyd's the bigger man.

Now at age 29, Duran is 72-1, 13-0 in title fights, with two world titles, 12 defences.

Floyd at age 29 is 39-0, 18-0 in title fights with 5 non-unified WBC belts, 12 defences.

Difficult to use championship fights as a guage, given the proliferation of them in the alphabet era. These days Duran's non-title fights against DeJesus, the Viruets, Mamby, Villa would all have been with the title on the line, so he'd likely have surpassed Floyd's tally. But Floyd needs all the help he can get in this match up, so I'll let it pass.

Floyd has his best days at 130, Duran at 135. I actually liked Floyd at 130, he fought some good competition, and beat them well, but for one reason or another never managed to unify the division or fight any of the other titlists. From that point on, they diverge, as Duran moves up through the weights and continues to fight the best into his 30s and well above his peak weight, and ends up diluting his title record to 15-6, but still picks up two more titles at 154 and 160, both against bigger, younger prime opponents who were favoured to beat him.

Floyd on the other hand takes the path of least resistance, cherry picking the weakest titlists whilst ignoring bigger, more dangerous and more lucrative challenges. Turns down a shot at the undisputed Judah in favour of facing Gatti, years removed from his prime and his peak weight. Turns down two mega offers to face Margarito. Calls out Winky and then runs and hides and when Winky accepts the challenge. Adds up to about a dozen or so titlists in his own divisions that he's managed not to face.

It's hard to match opponents directly best vs best, since Duran made it all the way to 160 to take on a prime top 5 middleweight, whereas Floyd daren't even take on the top welters. I'll give it a shot nonetheless:

Duran never fought for any titles at 130, but I'm willing to match Marcel, a guy who has been dismissed as a "bum" by those whose sources go no further than Boxrec, against any of Floyd's best at this weight. Floyd certainly never beat anyone who beat a prime Arguello.

DeJesus vs Sosa...Puh-lease.

Buchanan vs Castillo...More competitive than many of the others, as Floyd was still taking on the best at this point. Buchanan is a HOFer and arguably a top twenty 135lber, Castillo isn't, and is just as tough as Castillo, but more skilled. I think he'd tie Castillo in knots.

Benitez vs Gatti... Poor old Gatti

Leonard vs Baldomir... All-time top ten welt vs the 43rd greatest Argentine welt. Hmmmmm, as Pink is wont to say.

Hearns vs Hatton...cruel, just cruel.

Hagler vs De La Hoya...see De La Hoya-Hopkins or De La Hoya-Pacquiao

Barkley vs De La Hoya...see above

You see Floyd's figures look better, but it's easy to look good when you're cherry picking titles, ignoring the other titlists and turning down career-high paydays to fight the best in your division. Duran fought the best throughout his career, even when past his prime and past his peak weight, whereas Floyd hasn't. That's why Duran's a legend among all who understand boxing, whereas Floyd is merely a legend at the WBC and among fanboys.

Wow, Kid McCoy imparting knowledge. Good k

[Brandish]

Tszyu is not a fighter that Mayweather should have fought? Tszyu is a great champion and both were around the same division at the time, why not ( like Duran) move up and make these fights happen.

kosta tszyu is no sugar ray leonard he ain't even a ricky hatton. floyd moved out of 130 and in his nfirst fight at 135 faces and defeats castillo who ws a very good 135 champ at the time. duran did not move directly out of 135 and into a title fight with leonard

and If you didn't know when floyd moved to 140 kosta was injured for going on two years, and had a mandatory with sharmba mitchell. there was no way floyd could have fought him since kosta lost to ricky hatton spoiling the fight

Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time, and he not only unified but completely cleaned the division up and beat every name down there that was willing to fight.

I seriosuly doubt greatest of all time since I have sweet pea ranked ahead of him at 135. when you say cleaned the divison out that was easy since there weren't that many great lightweights for duran to fight. sweet pea fought much tougher lightweights then duran, but I digress. even if you have duran #1 at 135 all time that still wouldn't rank him top 10 atg. Larry homes, marvin hagler, bernard hopkins, all dominated there weight class for a much longer period then duran

That alone could possibly put him above Mayweather. Floyd fought the best when he was at featherweight and junior light weight and that i admit, but where is that in the other divisions that he fought in like 140, 147 and 154?

no it wouldn't put him above floyd based on that since floyd dominated 130 just like duran domianted 135..but of course you already knew this.

where was duran at 147, 154 and 160 did duran ever gain the disctinction that floyd garnered at 140, 147, 154. during duran's time at a higher weight, was he ever considered p4p the best fighter in the world..you are opeining a can of worms by attacking floyd mayweather jr.

Duran fought everyone in his divisions and its not fair at all to claim hes greater than Duran because he won more title fights.

so because pipino cuevas fought hearns and duran he should be ranked above them, as you know cuevas lost to both fighters so what you want to give duran credit for is just being in the ring but not winning

sounds like some one is trying to pull an oscar de la hoya on me. so duran is top 5 because he couldn't defeat the best fighters of his era, but was competitive in some of them. you don't mke sense

what you have to look at is who he fought in those title fights and who Duran fought in those title fights. I don't see Floyd beating Hagler, Leonard or Hearns to be honest( and i think Benitez would give him the fight of his life as well) , and that's not even half of the great fighters he fought.

did duran beat these fighters I didn't think so. and to think floyd would need to defeat the same fighters duran has is borderline ******ed. all floyd can do is gight the best of his era which he did and remained undefeated unlike duran who started at a higher weight and still couldn't win against his peers.

Since you like going to boxrec,

why not take a look at how many great fighters Duran beat at light weight

. How come Floyd never fought welterweight champion Margarito even though hes been calling him out for years even before he beat Oscar? Why has he never fought Cotto, Mosley, Williams, Pavlik ect( and instead hes coming out of retirement to fight Manny Pacquaio who is in a smaller weight class)? That is the only way he could be greater than Duran. Now mind you, i always say nothing but good things about Floyd but saying hes greater than Duran is ridiculous. Duran is top 5 of all time on most lists.

we have gone over this already, but please humor me and list these "great" lightweights duran beat.

oh and you mention floyd in his 4th weight class which is 147..did duran clean out 160. as a matter of fact did duran clean out any division above 135.

[Brandish]

Floyd 5'9", 72" reach, Duran 5'7", 66" reach. Not a huge amount in it, so a direct comparison is possible, although Floyd's the bigger man.

Now at age 29, Duran is 72-1, 13-0 in title fights, with two world titles, 12 defences.

Floyd at age 29 is 39-0, 18-0 in title fights with 5 non-unified WBC belts, 12 defences.

here we go with the excuses..did you realize duran had over 16 fighte at 160 and fought as high as 175 and he started at a weight class higher then floyds, how is floyd the bigger man.

Difficult to use championship fights as a guage, given the proliferation of them in the alphabet era. These days Duran's non-title fights against DeJesus, the Viruets, Mamby, Villa would all have been with the title on the line, so he'd likely have surpassed Floyd's tally. But Floyd needs all the help he can get in this match up, so I'll let it pass.

wrong again, floyd has alwasy fought for the WBC title, duran fought for that same WBC title during his time. a championship fight can only be sanctioned by the WBC, WBA, and IBF. some recognize the wbo and IBO I don't give those org's much weight but I wouldn't argue the point.

duran's title defenses and championship fights were sanctioned the same as floyds. the only difference is that floyd started fighting champions in his second year as a pro(1996-1998) whereby it took duran 5 years to start fighting championship caliber opponents (1968-1972).

and another stat for you is that 46% (18/39)of floyd's fights were at the championship level compared to 18.5% (22/119) for duran

so saying such and such should have been a title fight is irrelevant, don't try and smudge the boxing facts with your personal bias.

Floyd has his best days at 130, Duran at 135. I actually liked Floyd at 130, he fought some good competition, and beat them well, but for one reason or another never managed to unify the division or fight any of the other titlists. From that point on, they diverge, as Duran moves up through the weights and continues to fight the best into his 30s and well above his peak weight, and ends up diluting his title record to 15-6, but still picks up two more titles at 154 and 160, both against bigger, younger prime opponents who were favoured to beat him.

did you realize duran unified 135 agianst a fighter he had already fought in dejesus. floyd din't need the other titleists belts at 130 since he was recognized as the lineal rightful champ. unification is only necessary when you have more than one dominant champion in a weight class..like a leonard vs hearns.

and once again you want ot give duran credit for fighting the best but did he win against the best. you don't get credit for losing and you don't get ranked the 5th best fighter of all time if you can't dominat more than one division or beat the best in other divisons.

Floyd on the other hand takes the path of least resistance, cherry picking the weakest titlists whilst ignoring bigger, more dangerous and more lucrative challenges. Turns down a shot at the undisputed Judah in favour of facing Gatti, years removed from his prime and his peak weight. Turns down two mega offers to face Margarito. Calls out Winky and then runs and hides and when Winky accepts the challenge. Adds up to about a dozen or so titlists in his own divisions that he's managed not to face.

this all sounds like a good story, but you left out the fact that floyd defeated judah in his prime, gatti was necessary business, but I digress you have yet to present any facts as it relates to both fighters accomplishments.

all you've done so far is make your self look ****** by making up he said she said gossip about who suposedely ducked this fighter and that fighter. and it is laughable you bring up winky wright as a potential floyd opponent if you do that then you are leaving duran open to accusations of ducking nunn after he beat barkley.

this entire post so far has not presented any factual evidence on each fighters career.

you could have started by analyzing level of comp defeated, not level of comp lost to since floyd has never lost duran would be in the hole already. but you don't seem interested in debating facts only innuendo and gossip.

It's hard to match opponents directly best vs best, since Duran made it all the way to 160 to take on a prime top 5 middleweight, whereas Floyd daren't even take on the top welters. I'll give it a shot nonetheless:

you mean match duran's best victory at 154, and 160 compared to floyd's at 140, 147, and 154.. well why don't you do that.

I mean I would take gatti, baldomir and de la hoya as victories, over davey moore and iran barkley.

Duran never fought for any titles at 130, but I'm willing to match Marcel, a guy who has been dismissed as a "bum" by those whose sources go no further than Boxrec, against any of Floyd's best at this weight. Floyd certainly never beat anyone who beat a prime Arguello.

genaro hernandez was far superior to marcel and if you want to debate head to head accomplishments we can do that at anytime.

Buchanan vs Castillo...More competitive than many of the others, as Floyd was still taking on the best at this point. Buchanan is a HOFer and arguably a top twenty 135lber, Castillo isn't, and is just as tough as Castillo, but more skilled. I think he'd tie Castillo in knots.

once again I am not interested in your opinon only the facts..how many hofers did buchanan beat in his career, what about title defenses, championship fights. I am not interested in your opinion on fantaasy matchups

Benitez vs Gatti... Poor old Gatti

floyd beat gatti duran lost to benitez..next

Leonard vs Baldomir... All-time top ten welt vs the 43rd greatest Argentine welt. Hmmmmm, as Pink is wont to say.

eventhough floyd fought baldomir with one hand he did not quit unlike duran...floyd 1- vs baldomir duran 1-2 vs leonard

Hearns vs Hatton...cruel, just cruel.

duran got koed in 2 rounds vs hearns..floyd koed hatton in 10..next

Hagler vs De La Hoya...see De La Hoya-Hopkins or De La Hoya-Pacquiao

floyd defeated oscar de la hoya in his first fight at 154, duran has never done this on any level. and duran lost to hagler by the way..next

Barkley vs De La Hoya...see above

talk about getting desperate...

You see Floyd's figures look better, but it's easy to look good when you're cherry picking titles, ignoring the other titlists and turning down career-high paydays to fight the best in your division. Duran fought the best throughout his career, even when past his prime and past his peak weight, whereas Floyd hasn't. That's why Duran's a legend among all who understand boxing, whereas Floyd is merely a legend at the WBC and among fanboys.

floyd's figures look better because they are better. you see you fail in trying to get floyd to face duran's fighters. duran lost to the best of his era he was 1-5. that by iteslef does not warrant a top 10 atg ranking. duran had over 119 fights with only 18.5% being championship caliber. only 12 title defenses out of 119 fights hardly top ten atg ranking.

you can say what you want about floyd but he accomplsihed more than duran in his career and in his prime. wanting to give duran credit for losing to the best fighters of his era doesn't wash

[JAB5239]

It would help if you didn't attribute non-existent claims to me. I never claimed Leonard ducked Pryor. I said Pryor called him out and Leonard ignored him. Which of that part do you dispute? Leonard didn't duck him because it was never a fight he needed to make.



I said close or controversial. You think Benitez deserved to be stopped? You think many don't dispute the Hagler decision to this day? You don't think the Hearns fight was close? You don't think Duran retiring unhurt while behind two points on two cards and one on the other was controversial? You don't think there should have been meaningful rematches? There are plenty of great fighters who fought often against other great fighters who have far better claims to being top ten than a guy with four close wins.



Tell that to Brandish, who hammers Duran for losing to William Joppy at age 47 and expects him to be cleaning out the middleweight division in his 40s.



Marcel and Kobayashi bums, eh? Buchanan and DeJesus can't touch Ray's jock? Do you even know who they are? You do know that all were world champions, don't you? That Marcel beat a prime Arguello. That Duran beat the vastly more experienced Kobayashi at age 20. That Buchanan won his title by defeating a Latin American HOFer in Latin America and had only one loss (a bum decision) when he faced Duran? There is a lot more to fighters than just records.

As I said before, Boxrec is horribly incomplete for past fighters, especially ones from Latin America. Go check out the records of Monzon, Jofre, Chavez, Arguello and any other great Latin Americans from the past and they all have a lot of guys with only a few recorded fights. If a boxer is listed as 2-2 it does not mean he only had four fights. It means that only four of his fights are on the database. Records are often hard to come by in such places, and the full records of these guys will likely never be known. In some cases, not even the fighter's date of birth is known. I recall a similar debate on another forum with a prat who insisted that Sugar Ray Robinson was overrated because he fought guys with 0-0-0 records.



I had Duran up 9-3 through 12 rounds, so yes I stand by my point that Duran won convincingly. Duran took the last three off to celebrate, believing he already had it won, which imo he did, allowing Leonard to close to 9-6. It was his night.



I say a fighter should be judged in his prime and at his peak weight. What happens when a fighter peaks before your specified years 28-34? Does losing a fight at age 33 mean he was a rubbish when he was 23? Terry McGovern and Wilfredo Benitez peaked at a young age and were finished as top level fighters by their mid-20s. Should they be marked down for losses at your specified ages? Other fighters, like Archie Moore or George Foreman, were world champions in their 40s. Do they get more brownie points than say, Ezzard Charles, for being at the top well beyond the age of 28-34? For what it's worth, Ray Leonard lost to Terry Norris at age 34, but I don't take that into consideration because I judge all fighters on their own merits.



Jones dominated one division, not three, and even then failed to meet to the other "man" in the 175lb division. Two wins against Hopkins and the ever-inconsistent Toney do not put him above Duran.

Duran did not only beat one great. Only someone whose boxing knowledge starts and finishes with Sugar Ray Leonard would make such a claim.

From starting at 122 and peaking at 135, at age 37 and in his 92nd pro fight, Duran moved up to defeat the fearsome prime middleweight champ, fresh off a brutal KO of Tommy Hearns. Ruiz was never more than a paper titlist and Don King puppet. If Jones had really wanted to prove something at heavyweight he'd have fought the man, Lennox, as Conn, Spinks, Moore, Foster and various others did.

Further, shrink Jones down to 135 and put him in the ring against a prime Duran. Jones either runs all night, dropping a wide UD, or El Cholo hunts him down and brutally KOs him.

Finally, Ezzard Charles was 2-0 against Charley Burley, 3-0 against Archie Moore, 5-0 against Joey Maxim, 2-1 against Lloyd Marshall and 4-1 against Jimmy Bivins. Five Hall of Famers, all of them beaten by Charles multiple times. That's before you even consider that Charles was a former middleweight contender who moved up to win the heavyweight title, of which he made eight defences, and long past his best days gave Rocky Marciano his toughest scraps.

Now tell me why Ray Leonard deserves to be rated ahead of him.

All opinions of fighters aside, this is just a great, fact filled post. Pink and Brandish have their opinions, but that's all they are.....opinions. If I was able to give you green K again, it'd be there. Excellent post.

[JAB5239]

you don't get ranked the 5th best fighter of all time if you can't dominat more than one division or beat the best in other divisons.

First off, why not? Second, is Willie Pep not a top 10 all time fighter? He dominated 1 weight class. Yet like Duran, most historians (people in the know) have him in the top 10. Are they all wrong, or are you right?

Hell, Sam Langford never won a title in any division. But after all these yearsm most still have him in the top 10 all time.

How is it that you, a guy in the red, knows more about such fighters than people who have actually studied the careers of fighters rather than just go to boxrec?

[Brandish]

Further, shrink Jones down to 135 and put him in the ring against a prime Duran. Jones either runs all night, dropping a wide UD, or El Cholo hunts him down and brutally KOs him.

I am sure if esteban dejesus can handle and beat duran at 135 roy jones would slaughter him..

[JAB5239]

I am still amazed that none of you so called detractors of Duran or any other past great has answereed my question. What exactly makes you more informed about such fighters that we should disregard what most experts say? How is it you believe your arguments should be taken more seriously?