Duran is not a top ten ATG

[Kid McCoy]

great post, I just want one duran fan to step up to the plate and debate factually about duran's career, because I can list ten fighters all time that have accomplsihed more and was just as talented.

Is one of them PBF? Happy to match him head to head vs Duran and see who comes out tops.

[wpink1]

Good we agree that Benitez shouldn't have been stopped. Unbeaten champion stopped on his feet with less than ten seconds to go seems pretty controversial to me. I disagree that it was not close. Leonard was winning but it was no walk in the park.



He was not easily out-boxing him. Go and actually watch the fight. After eight rounds Leonard was ahead but the fight was still up-for-grabs. Unfortunately, Duran's more urgent need was go and take a dump, hence no mas.

Hagler was indeed controversial. Good we agree. Leonard also had a couple of behind-closed-doors fights against contenders, in fight conditions, prior to facing Hagler. Were they not, to all intents and purposes, tune-ups?

No comment on any of the rematches?



Tell me anything you know about Kobayashi, save what is on Boxrec and what you can quickly Google, for him to be dismissed as a bum.



Again with the records. For the last time, you cannot go by Boxrec! Did you see how many guys with 1-2-1 type records there are on Arguello's record? Do you really think he was padding his career with novice after novice? Henry Armstrong lost to a guy who was 0-0-0. Ray Robinson fought guys whose known record was 0-0-0. They bums too?



That's not even worthy of comment, Pink.



Well I disagree. A great fight, yes, in which Ray showed his toughness and heart, but not as close as you say. it was also a very important fight for Ray, since it toughened him up for future battles.



So Benitez, who was at club fighter level by the age of 32 and getting KO'd by journeymen, can be dismissed then? Does Ray Robinson get demoted because he lost to Terry Downes and Memo Ayon when he was past his prime? Like I said, judge on a case by case basis.

I never said Duran was passed his peak in November 1980. Bloated and under-prepared, yes. Above his peak weight, yes.



You're contradicting yourself. You said above you judge fighters at their peak, and now you want to judge their whole careers, even when past their prime and best weight. Which is it Pink? You seem to be saying that if Duran had managed his career more carefully, ie by retiring after a big win and avoiding everyone with a pulse thereafter, you'd rank him higher. What kind of logic is that? Unfortunately, not many fighters can be part-time boxers the way Ray was for much of his career. That's another reason why guys like Duran, Chavez and co fought often. They had to. They couldn't afford to hire fancy dan sparring partners and pad their records with one Superfight every couple of years.



No Ezzard Charles then? Still googling it?

Dont need to google ezzard charles..I was not talking about him but clearly in the top 10

As for Duran- Leoanrd. Fact check. regardless of how you or i feel, it was scored close in fact based off of (again facts check) the scores, if Ray was given round 1 he wins. So their is your huge win by Duran.

Now I agree Duran fight toughened him up. Yes it helped him vs hearns, hagler, I go a step further the leoanrd that got off the stool for the 5th round through the 15th round fought the best of his career, in a toe to toe exchange. I will always agree that Duran in a toe to toe exchange is a beast.


2nd fight Ray was easily outboxing him. You start seeing seperation around the 5th rounds in most fights when technique or pressure is the deciding factor. You saw this with in the 2nd fight. round 6 Ray won, round 7 he played with him, then round 8 ray was hitting duran with eveything he through and was planting more and putting more behind his punches. I truly believe that Duran was in route to being stopped.

Now please if you want to have a intelligent debate, please to subscribe to the weak ass excuse of stomach cramps or diarreah for Duran. That is just plain false. Again if you like Duran so much you should purchase "hands of stone". Many of your false statments and questions will be answered, like duran avoiding pryor, and this stomach crampe and not being in shape for the fight.

That leads me to this. Did you know Ray leonard had the flu for the week leading up to the 1st fight, and thus he had to stay in new york in stead of getting to Montreal. Bet you did not know this, as Ray offered no excuses. Plain and simply duran was getting his ass whipped in New orleans.

If you box you will realize the training sparring etc is not like the real thing. If you have not been in the ring in a real fight for 5 years except for one fight, all the training closed door sparring nothing gets you completley ready for the real thing, the adrennaline, the taking punches meaningful punches.etc. Example. When ray was in trainging for hagler he was pretty ko'd Quincy Taylor now what is important is that in sparring the action stops, many times you have head gear..etc. Howevver, vs hagler puches come not stop real time, sparring gets you somewhat prepared but your also not fighting fighters at the level of who your going to be seing in the ring...

I know that box rec doesnt show the entire career of many, hell they have a disclaimor telling you that, however those that they dont show a entire career could not be that great and the loses may be only some of them but they are valid. Kyobashi record is valid, you can cross check and he was 61-9-4 when they fought.. Not what I call a great fighter either he was beaten at pea by damm near 10 fighters already, or he was past his prime when duran faced him, either way he was not a great fighter. Same thing with Marcel. They are good at best.

I never contradicted myself. I say you judge a fighter by the totality of their career up until "generally age 34 or later" some yes are shot by an earlier age. I carry the same standard to all fighters. Duran should be judged by his career up until right after the hagler fight. After that yes it is all icing, but you cant ignore his beating he took when he moved up. That is what all duran fans try to do.

How about Roy Jones....why does he not get ranked in the top 10?

[wpink1]

Is one of them PBF? Happy to match him head to head vs Duran and see who comes out tops.

Right now I have duran above mayweathr that is only because mayweather beating judah and baldomir and shot dlh, Hatton imo is bit behind Duran. However it is close.

Mayweather at lightweight destroyes Duran...You think he quit vs leonard. mayweathr is not aleonard but the attributes that leonard depended on to help him beat duran in the 2nd fight, are all attributes that Mayweather uses daily and is better than ray in those specific attributes...He would beat the the dog crap out of duran if they had fought.

[Brandish]

Is one of them PBF? Happy to match him head to head vs Duran and see who comes out tops.

well go do the research...to help get you started :

floyd 18-0 in championship fights, 12 title defenses, 5 titles in 5 weighht classes, 3 lineal/ring titles...retired at 30 undefeated

duran 15-7 in chapionship fights, 12 title defenses, 4 titles in 4 weight classes, 2 ring lineal titles, retired at 50

[wpink1]

well go do the research...to help get you started :

floyd 18-0 in championship fights, 12 title defenses, 5 titles in 5 weighht classes, 3 lineal/ring titles...retired at 30 undefeated

duran 15-7 in chapionship fights, 12 title defenses, 4 titles in 4 weight classes, 2 ring lineal titles, retired at 50

Dammm brandish in that ass....

[Good Barracuda]

gayness thread

duran fought everyone, mayflower ducks the best. cowardness at its best, mayfeather could just understand to be the best is to beat the best he could actually do well in the sport. but until cowards like him step up he is not on durans level.

[slicksouthpaw16]

well go do the research...to help get you started :

floyd 18-0 in championship fights, 12 title defenses, 5 titles in 5 weighht classes, 3 lineal/ring titles...retired at 30 undefeated

duran 15-7 in chapionship fights, 12 title defenses, 4 titles in 4 weight classes, 2 ring lineal titles, retired at 50

I don't think its fair to compare them that way though. I like both fighters, but i do have to admit that Duran easily fought the better opposition throughout his career. That's kind of like saying Marciano is greater than Ali because he retired unbeaten even though Ali fought and beat greater fighters and in their prime. Duran didn't pick and choose. He fought the best. Mayweather beating Tszyu, Margarito, Cotto, Williams and Pavlik would probably be close to equaling Duran. What did Mayweather do that was as good as Duran's win over Leonard?

[Good Barracuda]

I don't think its fair to compare them that way though. I like both fighters, but i do have to admit that Duran easily fought the better opposition throughout his career. That's kind of like saying Marciano is greater than Ali because he retired unbeaten even though Ali fought and beat greater fighters and in their prime. Duran didn't pick and choose. He fought the best. Mayweather beating Tszyu, Margarito, Cotto, Williams and Pavlik would probably be close to equaling Duran. What did Mayweather do that was as good as Duran's win over Leonard?

he did nothings as great as duran.

[Kid McCoy]

Dont need to google ezzard charles..I was not talking about him but clearly in the top 10

Above Ray Leonard. If not, why not?

As for Duran- Leoanrd. Fact check. regardless of how you or i feel, it was scored close in fact based off of (again facts check) the scores, if Ray was given round 1 he wins. So their is your huge win by Duran.

Now I agree Duran fight toughened him up. Yes it helped him vs hearns, hagler, I go a step further the leoanrd that got off the stool for the 5th round through the 15th round fought the best of his career, in a toe to toe exchange. I will always agree that Duran in a toe to toe exchange is a beast.

I don't care what the scorecards say. There have been plenty of occasions where the scorecards don't reflect what actually happened in the ring. Mayweather won a convincing UD against Castillo on the scorecards. Many who watched the fight would beg to differ.

2nd fight Ray was easily outboxing him. You start seeing seperation around the 5th rounds in most fights when technique or pressure is the deciding factor. You saw this with in the 2nd fight. round 6 Ray won, round 7 he played with him, then round 8 ray was hitting duran with eveything he through and was planting more and putting more behind his punches. I truly believe that Duran was in route to being stopped.

I disagree. Yes Ray was dancing, yes he was showboating, yes he was taunting, but at no point had he hurt, staggered, cut or dropped Duran, or otherwise suggested that he was going to KO him.

Now please if you want to have a intelligent debate, please to subscribe to the weak ass excuse of stomach cramps or diarreah for Duran. That is just plain false. Again if you like Duran so much you should purchase "hands of stone". Many of your false statments and questions will be answered, like duran avoiding pryor, and this stomach crampe and not being in shape for the fight.

That leads me to this. Did you know Ray leonard had the flu for the week leading up to the 1st fight, and thus he had to stay in new york in stead of getting to Montreal. Bet you did not know this, as Ray offered no excuses. Plain and simply duran was getting his ass whipped in New orleans.

It's not patently false at all and yes I did know Ray had flu. Nor will I call you a liar for saying he had flu, because it's true. Duran's "training regime" and his antics in the build-up to the fight are well-documented. Read for instance this piece by Randy Gordon.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...0/mas-version/

If you box you will realize the training sparring etc is not like the real thing. If you have not been in the ring in a real fight for 5 years except for one fight, all the training closed door sparring nothing gets you completley ready for the real thing, the adrennaline, the taking punches meaningful punches.etc. Example. When ray was in trainging for hagler he was pretty ko'd Quincy Taylor now what is important is that in sparring the action stops, many times you have head gear..etc. Howevver, vs hagler puches come not stop real time, sparring gets you somewhat prepared but your also not fighting fighters at the level of who your going to be seing in the ring...

No this was not general sparring, they were as close as one could get to a real fight without it actually being one. They had rounds, referees and so forth. It's not unheard of in boxing. Gerry Cooney did it before he fought George Foreman. If you box you will also know that even the journeymen punch back. And they all hurt. To dismiss most of Duran's 135 and under opponents as no better than sparring partners because their records are hugely incomplete is ludicrous.

I know that box rec doesnt show the entire career of many, hell they have a disclaimor telling you that, however those that they dont show a entire career could not be that great and the loses may be only some of them but they are valid. Kyobashi record is valid, you can cross check and he was 61-9-4 when they fought.. Not what I call a great fighter either he was beaten at pea by damm near 10 fighters already, or he was past his prime when duran faced him, either way he was not a great fighter. Same thing with Marcel. They are good at best.

So we've moved from a bum to good at best, at least that's some progress. Henry Armstrong had 11 losses before he ever won a world title, many to guys with very unimpressive records. It means nothing without some context. Wouldn't you say a recent world champion who was vastly more experienced was a daunting prospect for a 20-year old boxer? Ray certainly wasn't fighting former world champions at age 20.

I never contradicted myself. I say you judge a fighter by the totality of their career up until "generally age 34 or later" some yes are shot by an earlier age. I carry the same standard to all fighters. Duran should be judged by his career up until right after the hagler fight. After that yes it is all icing, but you cant ignore his beating he took when he moved up. That is what all duran fans try to do.

Well I don't. I judge a fighter by his peak and at his peak weight. I don't hammer Robinson for losing to Maxim or Bob Foster for losing to Ali and Frazier. I don't judge Mike Tyson for losing to Kevin McBride any more than I judge Mike Spinks for losing to Tyson. Judge each on his own merits.

How about Roy Jones....why does he not get ranked in the top 10?

Because there are at least ten guys who deserve to be ranked above him.

[Brandish]

I don't think its fair to compare them that way though.

you have to compare stats when you talk about all-time great rankings:

1. wins -- level of comp
2. losses-- level of comp
3. championship fights (how amny won how many lost)
4. Title Defenses

anything else is subjective and biased.. just stick with the facts of what happened in their careers


I

like both fighters, but i do have to admit that Duran easily fought the better opposition throughout his career. That's kind of like saying Marciano is greater than Ali because he retired unbeaten even though Ali fought and beat greater fighters and in their prime.

very poor analogy, since marciano's comp can't be compared to floyd's. floyd moved up in weight just like duran, the only thing you need to do is your homework when it comes to their carers. duran losing to the best fighters of his generation and floyd defeating all of his is very significant in an atg ranking

Duran didn't pick and choose.

yes he did, hence the reason why he didn't fight pryor at 140 , and michael nunn at 160.

He fought the best.

yes he did that is why he is 1-5 against his peers.

Mayweather beating Tszyu, Margarito, Cotto, Williams and Pavlik would probably be close to equaling Duran. What did Mayweather do that was as good as Duran's win over Leonard?

no it wouldn't equal what duran did for the simple fact floyd has surpassed duran in terms of atg accomplishments. the fact that you through out kosta tszyu as a fighter floyd should have fought is pretty lame. kosta got beat by ricky hatton floyd koed ricky in 10...why would floyd need to fight tszyu when he couldn't even beat ricky hatton.

as far as cotto goes he was never in line as floyd's mandatory at 147. neither was willimas or margarito. just remember that 147 is floyd's 4th weight class, what did duran do i his fourth weight class besides beat iran barkley.

and you mention pavlik, that would be floyd's 6th weight class duran only won titles in four. you do know that duran fought at 168 and 175 albeit briefly.

so why would floyd need to win titles in 6 weight classes, uinify 147 his fourth weight class when duran has done nothing comparable in his career. duran didn't unify 160, heck not even 154 or 147. and he damn sure didn't win titles in 5 weight classes that he competeted in. so what's your point again