Duran is not a top ten ATG

[TheGreatA]

Roberto Duran in his prime:

[Brandish]

When you look at his record, his legacy, as a whole and think about it, a single man doing work from featherweight up to super middleweight and light heavyweight divisions against world champions for 5 different decades, if that isn't great then nothing is.

I have never said you should rank him in your top 10, I made that clear in my first post in this thread, but everyone should recognize his greatness.

your exaggerting. a bit. he won his first title in 1972 and his last title in 1989. roy remained undefeated for 15 years and won titles in four different weight classes and was the first jrmiddlewright to win a heavy weigth title. that was historic and very significant.

if duran had taken better care of himself he could have done alot more in his career and maybe gotten victorries over hagelr, benitez and ray two times but he didn't and it should affect his ranking.

fllyd's pitfall is his lack of great contemporaries. hopefully mosley can beat margarito and we can finally see floyd vs sugae shane.

[Brandish]

in his prime definitely top 20 out of his prime around top 75.

[TheGreatA]

your exaggerting. a bit. he won his first title in 1972 and his last title in 1989. roy remained undefeated for 15 years and won titles in four different weight classes and was the first jrmiddlewright to win a heavy weigth title. that was historic and very significant.

if duran had taken better care of himself he could have done alot more in his career and maybe gotten victorries over hagelr, benitez and ray two times but he didn't and it should affect his ranking.

fllyd's pitfall is his lack of great contemporaries. hopefully mosley can beat margarito and we can finally see floyd vs sugae shane.

I'm not exaggerating. Losing close decisions to Pazienza and Camacho, beating Castro along with some prospects, winning minor titles and being ranked by the alphabet belts means you're competing at a high level at 40+ years of age.

He was obviously not a Bernard Hopkins, only two or three fighters in history compare to what Hopkins has done, but still a good enough fighter to be ranked even though he was nearly 50 years old.

Roy was not undefeated for 15 years. He technically lost to Montell Griffin even if you don't think he should have.

If Jones was the first light middleweight to win a heavyweight title then Duran was the first bantamweight to win a middleweight title since that's the weight class he started at.

[Brandish]

I'm not exaggerating. Losing close decisions to Pazienza and Camacho, beating Castro along with some prospects, winning minor titles and being ranked by the alphabet belts means you're competing at a high level at 40+ years of age.

He was obviously not a Bernard Hopkins, only two or three fighters in history compare to what Hopkins has done, but still a good enough fighter to be ranked even though he was nearly 50 years old.

Roy was not undefeated for 15 years. He technically lost to Montell Griffin even if you don't think he should have.

If Jones was the first light middleweight to win a heavyweight title then Duran was the first bantamweight to win a middleweight title since that's the weight class he started at.

you know what I mena by defeat roy had never been beaten in the ring being dqed is a whole nother catorgy.

and nobody is not ranking duran I am just saying he is not top ten. where do you have duran ranked if you don't mind me asking

[BennyST]

There is something that I've found rather amusing across this whole conversation, which is that Mayweather is lauded for dominating a division, supposedly the 130 pound division right or even that Jones dominated 175? Dominated to me means unifying and beating all the champs and contenders in that division yes over a period of more than one or two years? Kostya Tszyu dominated the 140 pound division. One of the few guys off the top of my head that has really dominated a division in recent years.

Mayweather has supposedly dominated the 130 division. Mayweather gets a lot of credit for the title fights he had at 130. He fought Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez, Diego Corrales, and Genaro Hernandez. Out of those wins I think the two Hernandez' and Corrales are good. He had another five title fights at that weight and not one of them was against someone who has ever won a title. Now, not winning a title in this day and age of myriad title holders and belts is about as bad as .....

Anyway, so he had three meaningful fights at 130. Three. Chavez was not a bad win, but he won a vacant title and lost it the fight after. You tell me if that's a great win or not?

Most Mayweather fans will even put Mayweather as the greatest 130 pounder ever, because he supposedly dominated that division. He fought at the top for three years, which is good, very good in fact. It's not what I would call dominance though. Brandish said that Duran's lightweight run was terrible because he never defended his unified championship. What does this make of Mayweather's dominance then Brandish? To say he gets any credit for fighting guys like Manfredy, Juuko, Gerena etc etc, is absurd because none of them have ever even won a title. ****e, the contenders Duran fought like Viruet, Thompson etc would have brutalised every single one of those guys in the 130 division. Go see if you can find some fights of them. Viruet would not have brutalised anyone actually, he just would have out-boxed them. Thompson on the other hand would have. Amazing fighter. Neither guy won a title though and yet they were ten times the fighters that the aforementioned are. They would be in the same mold of the Hernandez' if they fought in today's championship reign or even better. Thompson fought in two divisions and only lost his title fights against Duran and Cervantes. They are the only title fights he got though and he was a top contender for a long time.

That is the big difference though. Those guys would have dominated a division now. Not just won a title, they would have dominated and held multiple titles for years if they fought today. Back then they struggled to win or even get a title shot. One champion per division, not forty nine. There is a big difference in winning title today compared to thirty years ago.

[TheGreatA]

you know what I mena by defeat roy had never been beaten in the ring being dqed is a whole nother catorgy.

and nobody is not ranking duran I am just saying he is not top ten. where do you have duran ranked if you don't mind me asking

I have never made an all-time great list other than having Ray Robinson as number one and Henry Armstrong as number two. I guess Duran would be up there but I'm not sure where.

[BennyST]

floyd has been able to keep much bigger fighters then duran off him. but in terms or in ring adjustments and smarts duran never had a plan b, floyd would be operating on way too many levels mentally in the ring for duran. come on wink you should know this. floyd is going to go down as one the smartest fighters in history. you don't get to 39-0 with his resume by not adapting and making adjustments in the fight. duran wasn't very good at this.



diego corrales, jose catilo, genaro hernandez, zab judah, oscar de la hoya,are not inferior to duran. some of them matchup quite well histroically with duran. anytime has had to step up and face a fellow p4p or ring champ he has demolished them.

Finally, the sense I first recognised in Wpink has come to the fore. Castillo is the guy you probably most associate with Duran right Brandish? Hell, you even think he's as good. The only problem is that one: He's very easy to hit or counter, whereas Duran at his peak at 135, 147 was just as hard to hit as any of the defensive greats (yes, that includes Mayweather, Whitaker etc) of those weights. He was a lot faster than Castillo, a lot faster. He could box from the outside along with his inside game.

The big part though is that Mayweather happily lays against the ropes. He is in the Toney vein of fighter. He fights on the inside more than the outside and lets himself get trapped against the ropes all throughout a fight from the first round to the last. Duran was much stronger than Castillo and would be able to bull Mayweather into the ropes and Mayweather would not be able to counter him like he was able to Castillo. He was too hard to hit on the inside. Duran, at the higher weights, had trouble with guys that moved a lot and set everything up off the jab. Mayweather hardly uses a jab, and doesn't actually move that much at all. He gives angles, but allows himself to get trapped on the ropes. Against much bigger guys he moved more and pot-shotted, but that was against slow plodders like Baldomir. Mayweather's style is actually pretty good for Duran funnily enough. It would be a hard fight, but if you think that Mayweather tags Duran all night because he has no defense and is slow, with no head movement, you're sorely mistaken. He just doesn't win in the type of fight he would give Duran.

[wpink1]

Finally, the sense I first recognised in Wpink has come to the fore. Castillo is the guy you probably most associate with Duran right Brandish? Hell, you even think he's as good. The only problem is that one: He's very easy to hit or counter, whereas Duran at his peak at 135, 147 was just as hard to hit as any of the defensive greats (yes, that includes Mayweather, Whitaker etc) of those weights. He was a lot faster than Castillo, a lot faster. He could box from the outside along with his inside game.

The big part though is that Mayweather happily lays against the ropes. He is in the Toney vein of fighter. He fights on the inside more than the outside and lets himself get trapped against the ropes all throughout a fight from the first round to the last. Duran was much stronger than Castillo and would be able to bull Mayweather into the ropes and Mayweather would not be able to counter him like he was able to Castillo. He was too hard to hit on the inside. Duran, at the higher weights, had trouble with guys that moved a lot and set everything up off the jab. Mayweather hardly uses a jab, and doesn't actually move that much at all. He gives angles, but allows himself to get trapped on the ropes. Against much bigger guys he moved more and pot-shotted, but that was against slow plodders like Baldomir. Mayweather's style is actually pretty good for Duran funnily enough. It would be a hard fight, but if you think that Mayweather tags Duran all night because he has no defense and is slow, with no head movement, you're sorely mistaken. He just doesn't win in the type of fight he would give Duran.

Benny you again need to research. Look at Mayweather Corrales, and certain parts in the Castillo fight. Mayweather used movement when he needs to. Many times he used lateral movement and back and forth on his toes then when Castillo or Corrales came in to punch he would use either lateral movement of in an out on his toes movement to avoid taking punches. Many many times he would slip along the ropes to avoid taking shots. I dont know where you get Mayweather does not use movement.

Maybe he didnt use it as much as Leoanrd did, but there is a reason for this. I dont think mayweather is near the offensive fighter ray is, but defensively he could make you miss and counter right in front of you, where as Ray was good defensivly when he focuse solely on that. He was never as good defensivly as Mayweather and his counters, where not day in day out is precise, accure, pin point at mayweathers or for that case Jones. So where Ray would use movement to no only set up his opponent and create angles. he also used it as a defensive tool, more so than mayweather did.

As for Mayweather dominating weight divisions, I never said that. I did say roy dominated 3 divisions. Did he beat every single fighter no. Did he have defenses vs the best or most of the best at middle, super middle and light heavy yes. did he beat the man at each division, yes. So did he have a 10 year run at any weight division no. but he did dominate the division to where every one knew all stops came through roy, and until age 35, those stops where met with loses.

Now for machine weak comment about roy not being undefeated. Puhlease.....You got to be joking. Your going whine about Roy and griffith. yes is wa s dq..was roy ever BEATEN in a ring, like Duran was repeatedly before the age of 35. What happend to Griffith in the rematch. What happend to Duran in his remath with Leonard. Hmmmmmm

[Brandish]

There is something that I've found rather amusing across this whole conversation, which is that Mayweather is lauded for dominating a division, supposedly the 130 pound division right or even that Jones dominated 175? Dominated to me means unifying and beating all the champs and contenders in that division yes over a period of more than one or two years? Kostya Tszyu dominated the 140 pound division. One of the few guys off the top of my head that has really dominated a division in recent years.

if you're saying floyd did not dominate 130 then by that logic duran did not dominate 135 since he never unified the 135 title until his final fight at the weight. let's see floyd undefeated 8 title defenses from 996-2002. duran reigned as champ from 1972 to 1978. and for 6 years duran did not unify 135 why the double standard

Mayweather has supposedly dominated the 130 division. Mayweather gets a lot of credit for the title fights he had at 130. He fought Jesus Chavez, Carlos Hernandez, Diego Corrales, and Genaro Hernandez. Out of those wins I think the two Hernandez' and Corrales are good. He had another five title fights at that weight and not one of them was against someone who has ever won a title. Now, not winning a title in this day and age of myriad title holders and belts is about as bad as .....

how many of duran's title defenses were against former champions play fair or I will get nasty.

Anyway, so he had three meaningful fights at 130. Three. Chavez was not a bad win, but he won a vacant title and lost it the fight after. You tell me if that's a great win or not?

how many meanigful fights di duran have at 135

Most Mayweather fans will even put Mayweather as the greatest 130 pounder ever, because he supposedly dominated that division. He fought at the top for three years, which is good, very good in fact. It's not what I would call dominance though. Brandish said that Duran's lightweight run was terrible because he never defended his unified championship. What does this make of Mayweather's dominance then Brandish?

please find where I said duran's 135 run was terrible..duran was a great lightweight champ that alone does not maek him top ten atg. he ruled 135 for 6 years floyd ruled 130 for 6 years.

to say he gets any credit for fighting guys like Manfredy, Juuko, Gerena etc etc, is absurd because none of them have ever even won a title. ****e, the contenders Duran fought like Viruet, Thompson etc would have brutalised every single one of those guys in the 130 division. Go see if you can find some fights of them. Viruet would not have brutalised anyone actually, he just would have out-boxed them. Thompson on the other hand would have. Amazing fighter. Neither guy won a title though and yet they were ten times the fighters that the aforementioned are. They would be in the same mold of the Hernandez' if they fought in today's championship reign or even better. Thompson fought in two divisions and only lost his title fights against Duran and Cervantes. They are the only title fights he got though and he was a top contender for a long time.

once agan how many fighters did duran fight at 135 who were champions. how many fithts did he have against weak compeition.

That is the big difference though. Those guys would have dominated a division now. Not just won a title, they would have dominated and held multiple titles for years if they fought today. Back then they struggled to win or even get a title shot. One champion per division, not forty nine. There is a big difference in winning title today compared to thirty years ago.

you keep believing that. there are three main titles floyd fought for one of the oldest in the wbc same as duran I fail to see your point.

floyd was regarded as the legitimate 130lb champ when he reigned there was no confusion same with duran both fighters get props for that but their careers did not end there.