Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=joseph5620;4131593]

** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you.



Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time.

As you know fully well, sparring and actually getting in the ring for a pro fight are two different things. If a fighter doesn't fight in a real boxing match for 6 years, all of the sparring in the world is not going to prepare him for a professional fight.

Happy 1000th post Joe!

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;4131604]

Happy 1000th post Joe!

Thanks Jab! I never thought I would stay here that long

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Jack Johnson not a top 10 heavy??? The man is a top FIVE all time best heavyweight. I dont want to get to in depth with Jack's great career but I do want to address some peoples disrespect saying Jack dodged black fighters. Jack didn't dodge anyone he didn't fight Langford because the public didn't want it. Two black fighters didn't sell that well back in the day. Look at pictures of the Jefferies fight compared to some of Langford's fights. Langford fought infront of what 1000 people while the white fighters packed the joint. It was strictly money why these fights didnt happen and if you know anything about Jack you would know the man was fueled by money.

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Jack Johnson didnt help black people out at all. he created a bad image for them and basically reinforced racist people's prejudgements. the racism was already there, which was a disgrace, but Johnson did nothing to help or give them any reason to change their mind. Joe Louis was the anti-Jack Johnson, and actually made black people look good

Yes, at the time Jack did bring a bad image to blacks but honestly its only because of racism. Jack was jailed and received countless amount of tickets for speeding when he wasn't speeding. He also took a ton of verbal abuse because of his liking to white women. Is a black man dating a white woman so bad? No, its certainly not so it was basically the media giving him a bad name and Jack embraced that and why shouldn't he. Would you allow the media to dictate what you do?

As for the brown bomber you are right that he was the anti Jack but once again its the media. Joe was almost forced into being a clean cut caring person. All in all Jack was a fine man and Joe was forced to be "white".

[JAB5239]

Jack Johnson not a top 10 heavy??? The man is a top FIVE all time best heavyweight. I dont want to get to in depth with Jack's great career but I do want to address some peoples disrespect saying Jack dodged black fighters. Jack didn't dodge anyone he didn't fight Langford because the public didn't want it. Two black fighters didn't sell that well back in the day. Look at pictures of the Jefferies fight compared to some of Langford's fights. Langford fought infront of what 1000 people while the white fighters packed the joint. It was strictly money why these fights didnt happen and if you know anything about Jack you would know the man was fueled by money.

None of this matters. As the best fighter in the world, you are expected to take on the best challengers. That said, I understand why he didn't fight them with the money issue and all. What bothers me is, knowing how hard he had it coming up with these same fighters he never threw one of them a bone or gave them the opportunity that he had worked so hard for. That just doesn't sit right with me.

[Davros?]

Jack Johnson not a top 10 heavy??? The man is a top FIVE all time best heavyweight. I dont want to get to in depth with Jack's great career but I do want to address some peoples disrespect saying Jack dodged black fighters. Jack didn't dodge anyone he didn't fight Langford because the public didn't want it. Two black fighters didn't sell that well back in the day. Look at pictures of the Jefferies fight compared to some of Langford's fights. Langford fought infront of what 1000 people while the white fighters packed the joint. It was strictly money why these fights didnt happen and if you know anything about Jack you would know the man was fueled by money.

I have read a few books on Johnson and seen some of his fights, I don't really have a top 10 heavyweight list how are we supposed to judge him fairly compared to other more recent fighters the rules were different which has an effect on style but there is also to little footage to compare him with say Ali who's fights are very easy to get hold of, I have read a lot of reports about fights in the past and then found after watching them my self i have a different view on it. So although books, news papers of the time, first hand reports and video clips give us a good incite into fighters of that time we cant fully judge them imo.

[JAB5239]

I have read a few books on Johnson and seen some of his fights, I don't really have a top 10 heavyweight list how are we supposed to judge him fairly compared to other more recent fighters the rules were different which has an effect on style but there is also to little footage to compare him with say Ali who's fights are very easy to get hold of, I have read a lot of reports about fights in the past and then found after watching them my self i have a different view on it. So although books, news papers of the time, first hand reports and video clips give us a good incite into fighters of that time we cant fully judge them imo.

Personaly, I think it takes a whole lot of work ranking fighters for the reasons you named. It can be done though thru the type of research you talked about. Thing is to remember that you are not comparing fighters head to head, but accomplishments. when you do that there are a lot of things to take into consideration such as same day/day before weigh ins. 4oz/10oz gloves. 15 rounds/12 rounds. 1 title/4 titles. 8 weight classes/17 weight classes. The number of pro fighters during the era. The money fighters made and make. How often fighters fought. competition. Nutrition then/nutrition now. Medical science, etc., etc., etc. And when doing this you still have to remember its subjective. What might be an important thing to you may not be nearly as important to someone else. There is no exact science to it. Just try to cover all the bases and keep an open mind. And after you have done all that, I can promise there will still be plenty of people to ridicule your list. Thats just how it is.

[them_apples]

seriously, makes no sense. Ive seen people put him in the top 10 best heavyweights list, but for what? the guy was fighting guys that weighed 160 naturally, which would pretty much be the equivilant of Welterweights nowadays. Johnson fought maybe 2 or 3 guys that weighed 200lbs+ in his title defences, one of them being a loss.

and the guys style? it was basically a better version of John Ruiz, and Im not joking at all. I know the fights were longer and everything, but mostly he did that sort of thing because he 220lbs and he could just lean on guys that weighed about 50 or 60 pounds less than him. I dont mean to put him down, but if someone like Tyson would have knocked out Roy Jones no one wouldve given him any credit, despite the fact that Jones is one of the greatest p4p fighters and middleweight/light heavyweights of all time...If you wouldnt give Tyson credit for that, why would you give credit to Johnson for knocking out lesser middleweights?

I dont mean to put him down so badly, but I have a hard time believing that there arent 10 heavyweights that have done more than Jack Johnson has.
so why would someone ever rate Jack Johnson in the top 10 best heavies?

he was good for his day, obviously any modern heavyweight would beat his ass even todays weak ass division.

[1g5a22]

top10?

top 5!

[LondonRingRules]

Just for arguments sake, if what you say is true then how did he ever get a title shot? Wouldn't he have been ignored like so many other worthy black fighters? And why if Langford was so adored was he able to fight the best fighters of the day, yet never fight for a title at any weight?

** Ketchell did fight Langford as a teaser to their title fight. Unfortunately Ketchell is shot in the back months later and adios title match.

Langford also fights Walcott in what is supposed to be a defense of Walcott's welt title, but historians ain't accepting it as a title fight, supposedly because of the weights. Since it's recorded as a draw, there is little impetus to go further, though one could hope for a change in status for the future.

As to how Johnson gets a title fight, he was better established as a heavy than Langford at the time and found some backing that met Burn's guarantee for the fight, the right place at the right time kind of thing. Sorta like McNeely getting the call for Tyson's post prison debut.

Burns had agreed to meet Langford before Johnson, but Langford couldn't raise the money in France before Burns sets sail in his world title defense tour. Meanwhile, Johnson is in England, gets some backing with the official Brit boxing org with a supposed signed contract to make Langford his first defense in England if he beats Burns.

Fortified, Johnson sails to catch Burns in Australia where Burns reportedly raises his guarantee. Miraculously, Johnson finds a new manager to put him over the top and fight made. Johnson renegs on his promise to defend against Langford, stiffs his new manager after a row over money, and sails to Vancouver for his homecoming.

Johnson may not have been able to stay in every "white" hotel, but he does stay in many "white" hotels as he tested and found the ones which would accept him. In fact, he famously busts the color line at the biggest cathouse in the US which was nothing but a private men's hotel for the wealthy.