Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

[Steak]

Combine those wins with his wins over quality "white" opposition and I would have to say yes. combine that yet again with the fact that he was always under immense pressure from being detested by the majority, and many black as well, and regular death threats, which I would imagine during that period would be very hard for a black man to ignore, and the guy was great. His overall record is as good or better than bothy Dempsey and Marciano in my opinion. Liston and Holyfield as well and possibly Holmes if I took the time to disect they're respective careers. In my opinion he ranks right up there with the all time greats at heavy AND fought under harsher conditions. Jmo.

Im surprised by that answer, espeically how you put Johnson over Liston and Holyfield, but I dont really think we can convince each other much at this point, haha. it was a fun discussion tho.

[JAB5239]

Im surprised by that answer, espeically how you put Johnson over Liston and Holyfield, but I dont really think we can convince each other much at this point, haha. it was a fun discussion tho.

Im not necassarily putting him over them, but I do think he ranks up there with them and is comparable all time when you take everything into consideration. I do agree none of us are going to change the others minds however. It rarely ever happens on these boards. I would suggest reading "Unforgivable blackness" if you are open to it though. It will give you a much better perspective of what Johnson actually went through.

If you want me on your side in a Jack Johnson argument, argue about him never giving any of those colored fighters he had previously fought a shot at the accepted world title once he became champ. Johnson was great in my opinion, but that has always rubbed me wrong no matter the excuses.

[joseph5620]

I just noticed Jim Jefferies voted no.,

I hope you're not surprised lol

[Arka]

Can we really call Jack Johnson a scumbag for what he did? He did what the majority of us would do in his situation in my opinion.

Joe Louis was an exceptional man.

The difference is that Jack Johnson lived the rest of his life wealthy while Louis was screwed over by the government. What's the moral of that story?

For what it's worth according to boxrec Johnson fought his last fight at the age of 60 and lost by KO in the seventh round.
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...1187&cat=boxer
That doesn't suggest to me a that Jack was a particularly wealthy man in his later years.Of course he probably dissipated most of his wealth on good booze and women,while on the other hand Louis got famously nailed for back taxes on the money he donated to the American war efforts.Interesting article here on it...

http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=22

Poor Joe Louis.Not the sharpest tool in the bunch.He went insane in his later years .Apparently,thought that the CIA was out to get him.

[slicksouthpaw16]

ok, again, yes Johnson did fight like Ruiz. he clinched a LOT. that was the style back then, I understand. but thats the way he was, and thats all there is to it. the point still stands.

and again, I dont care that he was the first black heavyweight champ. that doesnt mean anything to me. Ruiz was the first hispanic champ. that doesnt mean anything to me either.

and apparently he was not beating up everyone, since he got draws in two of his title defences, so I have a hard time believing he was really THAT dominant.

and again, Im going to name 10 heavyweights
-Ali
-Joe Louis
-Larry Holmes
-George Foreman
-Sonny Liston
-Rocky Marciano
-Ezzard Charles
-Evander Holyfield
-Lennox Lewis
-Joe Frazier

if Johnson deserves to be in the top ten, he needs to be better than one of them. compare their records, and then we can actually discuss something. Johnson was not a bad fighter at all. dont get me mixed up. All Im saying is top ten. thats it. in fact, hes just outside the top ten. but not in it.

Seems to me like you are trying to persuade that Johnson wasn't a top 10 great heavyweight rather than learn about Johnson( which would be best). That's why i had to call it a day.

[Gareth Ivanovic]

Can't the greatness of a champion also be measured if he changed or revolutionized the sport. Jack not only changed the sport on racial and social lines, but also with the way he fought. He was ahead of his time in that aspect. Usually in all sports the all time greats revolutionized the sport in some way.

[LondonRingRules]

he was always under immense pressure from being detested by the majority, and many black as well, and regular death threats,

** It seems you were unduly influenced by a notorious play that many take as history, The Great White Hope, which in fact is a very loose adaptation of his life.

Naturally, Hollywood comes calling as they love fictionalized history.

Fact is that Johnson's biggest problem was that he was ignored for most of his career. Few knew of or cared about him as he was not a compelling fighter, being more clown prince and hugs and kisses than man to man fighting like the public adored Sam Langford for. Oh, the Police Gazette ends up jumping on his bandwagon late in Jeffries career, but that's about it.

None of the stuff you mention starts until he comes back from Australia showing off his new title and trophy wife. Let's face facts here, he loved the attention, courted it, and of course had help from Jack London and such who whipped up the flames racial disharmony.

If you look at his lifestyle post Burns, half of his friends were white. He moved easily around the country until his Mann Act indictment and had a cult popularity that gets buried under the blizzard of negative press.

Who are the best "prime heavies" Johnson beats should be the question and answer. Those that know also know the list to be fairly undistinguished: Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, Black Bill, Frank Childs, Sandy Ferguson, and of course Tommy Burns who was the shortest and 2nd lightest heavyweight champ in history, more on the scale of a smallish LH.

Burns was a great fighter, just not a great heavy. The others are good era names, but the quality CVs of Langford, Jeannette, and Wills of the same era are much greater.

It's the Jeffries win that turns the trick and it's hard to believe that all these years later people can't put that fight into context of Jeffries attempting the impossible, something that has never been accomplished in heavyweight history, and likely boxing history, that of knocking off 6 yrs of rust, 100lbs of blubber and straight off the rocking chair to challenging an era great in his prime.

[LondonRingRules]

For your sake I hope you're joking about that. Jackson was old, sick and had not had a fight in six years before he fought Jeffries.Peter Jackson died only 4 years after that fight. Jeffries management knew exactly how that fight would turn as any other sane person would. To even suggest that it was more impressive than Liston beating Patterson is some of the most worst ignorance I've seen on this board. I also see how you disregarded all of the top black fighters Johnson beat as if only the Jeffries fight is why people think Johnson was great

** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you.

Review my post above to break down the best prime heavies Johnson beat.

Jackson went into semi retirement at his height, a draw with Corbett and commonwealth win over Slavin. Probably out of frustration, but who really knows? He was a big name and Jeffries just a novice with 7 fights. Yes, they were top quality names you seldom see on a novice fighter's record, but to think that Jeffries had this all knowing management that could keep up with such a noted world traveller as Jackson is just naive.

Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time. Already pointed out his age, but for an infirm man on his deathbed as you make him out, he shows up very fit at 195 against a novice no matter how you slice it.

[JAB5239]

** It seems you were unduly influenced by a notorious play that many take as history, The Great White Hope, which in fact is a very loose adaptation of his life.

Naturally, Hollywood comes calling as they love fictionalized history.

Sorry my friend, but I have never seen the play or movie. all my information has been taken from books and historians.

Fact is that Johnson's biggest problem was that he was ignored for most of his career. Few knew of or cared about him as he was not a compelling fighter, being more clown prince and hugs and kisses than man to man fighting like the public adored Sam Langford for. Oh, the Police Gazette ends up jumping on his bandwagon late in Jeffries career, but that's about it.

Just for arguments sake, if what you say is true then how did he ever get a title shot? Wouldn't he have been ignored like so many other worthy black fighters? And why if Langford was so adored was he able to fight the best fighters of the day, yet never fight for a title at any weight?

None of the stuff you mention starts until he comes back from Australia showing off his new title and trophy wife. Let's face facts here, he loved the attention, courted it, and of course had help from Jack London and such who whipped up the flames racial disharmony.

This is irrelevant. It still happened and there still had to be enormous pressure whether anyone believes he brought it on himself. London just made things worse.

If you look at his lifestyle post Burns, half of his friends were white. He moved easily around the country until his Mann Act indictment and had a cult popularity that gets buried under the blizzard of negative press.

As a child growing up he played with white children, this doesn't mean there wasn't racism and prejudice through out his life. He moved easily around the country once he became champ because he had money. Even with all the money he spent and flaunted, he was never allowed to stay in a white hotel. And a cult following pales in comparison to the overwhelming majority. Having money changes a lot of things and of course he would have hangers on of all colors. That will never change.

Who are the best "prime heavies" Johnson beats should be the question and answer. Those that know also know the list to be fairly undistinguished: Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, Black Bill, Frank Childs, Sandy Ferguson, and of course Tommy Burns who was the shortest and 2nd lightest heavyweight champ in history, more on the scale of a smallish LH.

Almost any heavyweight champion in history can have this question asked about his career and be torn down. Fact is, he beat the best black fighters of the day and destroyed the heavyweight champion who was white. He then beat all the challengers that racist Americans cheered for right up till Willard.

Burns was a great fighter, just not a great heavy. The others are good era names, but the quality CVs of Langford, Jeannette, and Wills of the same era are much greater.

I agree. And I don't like the fact that after Johnson became champ he didn't give any deserving black fighter the same shot he was afforded, though I understand why.

It's the Jeffries win that turns the trick and it's hard to believe that all these years later people can't put that fight into context of Jeffries attempting the impossible, something that has never been accomplished in heavyweight history, and likely boxing history, that of knocking off 6 yrs of rust, 100lbs of blubber and straight off the rocking chair to challenging an era great in his prime.

Does this not tell you how much the public hated Johnson, that they would pin their hopes on a man with almost no chance? Because we both know Jeffries never wanted this fight but was basicly forced into it by public pressure and outcry that the greatest prize in sports wasn't held by a white man.

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;4127916]** My dearest Joey, apparently the worst ignorance you've ever seen trumps you.



Jackson seems to have run a pugilistic school much like James Figg and Jack Broughton before him. It is just silly think Jackson was not actively sparring and in shape during this time.

As you know fully well, sparring and actually getting in the ring for a pro fight are two different things. If a fighter doesn't fight in a real boxing match for 6 years, all of the sparring in the world is not going to prepare him for a professional fight.