The reason for the decline of American heavyweights?

[Kris Silver]

We'll since I've actually boxed I'd have some sort of perspective.

I'm not saying that it is. I'm saying that why are you using the NFL as a point AGAINST american athletes having any cardio but then not including the NBA.

Are you saying that "real football" has more cardio than basketball? I think that's what you're saying right?

Dude, you've got yourself into now asking questions, because your relentlessly playing the awkward customer, and devils advocate no matter what is said. Seriously dude, chill out. This is sports were talking about, ppl are trying to talk nicely, have a decent debate, make some points, and all your doing is questioning, saying somethings wrong without backing it up, then arrogantly storming off like some kind of know it all.

You may not agree with everything, but Lucky's made some valid points which ppl all over the world agree with to varying extents, so drop the whole your being ****** and are wrong attitude.

Big guys being recruited into ball games in the US is of course a factor, it's unclear to what level you accept this, but even when mentioned you challenge on it. Just accept ppl have varying views man. Guys near the HW size in the US are playing ball games from a young age, so they're fitness and skills often suite such games more than boxing, which requires certain sizes to help you, skill sets, eye coordination, hand speed, fitness, power, strength, toughness both mentally and pysically, and a heart and body to fight toe to toe for 12 Rounds.

Another quite reasonable valid point is the former Soviet Union being able to box professionally. The amatuer argument is somewhat valid, but the effects of a sport being *******ised catch on and drive the sport and its performers onwards to better things, OVER TIME. Ppl at the top of the game inspiring ppl to get involved in that sport for the first time, and yes there's loads of boxing in eastern europe now so it's likely more will compete at the top level.

At the same time the opposite is happening in the US, more focus and recruiting in other sports, less in boxing, contrary to more elsewhere.

These are all reasonable and backed up points so stop being so argumentative, it's not particularly helping you or anyone.

You seem to want to discount to whatever extent the size aspect to some extent, and the recruiting into other sports to whatever extent, leaving it not clearly what your concise view is. You do think some are recruited into other sports, but even that means some would be getting through, which they aren't. You don't want to accept the size excuse, so its almost like your saying I don't want excuses, there's no major ones, it's mostly due to lack of skill.

[bsrizpac]

Dude, you've got yourself into now asking questions, because your relentlessly playing the awkward customer, and devils advocate no matter what is said. Seriously dude, chill out. This is sports were talking about, ppl are trying to talk nicely, have a decent debate, make some points, and all your doing is questioning, saying somethings wrong without backing it up, then arrogantly storming off like some kind of know it all.

You may not agree with everything, but Lucky's made some valid points which ppl all over the world agree with to varying extents, so drop the whole your being ****** and are wrong attitude.

Big guys being recruited into ball games in the US is of course a factor, it's unclear to what level you accept this, but even when mentioned you challenge on it. Just accept ppl have varying views man. Guys near the HW size in the US are playing ball games from a young age, so they're fitness and skills often suite such games more than boxing, which requires certain sizes to help you, skill sets, eye coordination, hand speed, fitness, power, strength, toughness both mentally and pysically, and a heart and body to fight toe to toe for 12 Rounds.

Another quite reasonable valid point is the former Soviet Union being able to box professionally. The amatuer argument is somewhat valid, but the effects of a sport being *******ised catch on and drive the sport and its performers onwards to better things, OVER TIME.

At the same time the opposite is happening in the US, more focus and recruiting in other sports, ppl at the top of the game inspiring ppl to get involved in that sport for the first time, and yes there's loads of boxing in eastern europe now so it's likely more will compete at the top level.

These are all reasonable and backed up points so stop being so argumentative, it's not particularly helping you or anyone.

You seem to want to discount to whatever extent the size aspect to some extent, and the recruiting into other sports to whatever extent, leaving it not clearly what your concise view is. You do think some are recruited into other sports, but even that means some would be geting through, which they aren't. You don't want to accept the size excuse, so it almost says it's just plainly due to lack of skill!?

Reasonable? So I was the first person to make the snide "real football" comment? Right. You guys don't even know when you're being derisive and dismissive, it's so ingrained.

I'm just not getting it.

Big ass Euros = great cardio
Big ass Americasn = bad cardio. Why

[Steak]

So how is it that a 19 year old George Foreman was able to dominate these much older and larger Soviets in the Olympics? There's no doubt that the landscape of the HW division would have been slightly different if Cubans and Russians would've been allowed to turn pro, but to suggest that the Joe Louis', Ali's, Foreman's, etc still wouldn't have been champs is a bit silly, don't you think?

What about the fact that many of the top american heavyweights won olympic golds?

The young American heavyweights from the past often won Olympic gold's against these more experienced eastern European's

You guys make great points. People always talk about how Soviets werent allowed to go into the pros, but their best fighters were already being beaten by young versions of Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc.
Ive never heard a good response to this, and Id honestly like to hear one.


and theres actually not a huge size difference between the fighters nowadays and the fighters of old. Wlad Klitschko, Valuev? Theyre exceptions. haha. but otherwise, the other top champs around like Ibragimov and Chagaev are NOT big guys at all, and could easily go to the Cruiserweight division if they wanted. They even kind of have extra baggage.

hell, even Dennis Boytsov, Russia's best heavyweight prospect at the moment, is considered undersized. When David Haye starts fighting at heavy, hes going to be bigger than these guys.

and then you have examples like James Toney and Chris Byrd somehow doing well in today's heavyweight division...and theyre just blown up guys meant to fight at other weight classes. unfortunately, they got old.

[FUC_U_PAYME]

Dude, you've got yourself into now asking questions, because your relentlessly playing the awkward customer, and devils advocate no matter what is said. Seriously dude, chill out. This is sports were talking about, ppl are trying to talk nicely, have a decent debate, make some points, and all your doing is questioning, saying somethings wrong without backing it up, then arrogantly storming off like some kind of know it all.

You may not agree with everything, but Lucky's made some valid points which ppl all over the world agree with to varying extents, so drop the whole your being ****** and are wrong attitude.

Big guys being recruited into ball games in the US is of course a factor, it's unclear to what level you accept this, but even when mentioned you challenge on it. Just accept ppl have varying views man. Guys near the HW size in the US are playing ball games from a young age, so they're fitness and skills often suite such games more than boxing, which requires certain sizes to help you, skill sets, eye coordination, hand speed, fitness, power, strength, toughness both mentally and pysically, and a heart and body to fight toe to toe for 12 Rounds.

Another quite reasonable valid point is the former Soviet Union being able to box professionally. The amatuer argument is somewhat valid, but the effects of a sport being *******ised catch on and drive the sport and its performers onwards to better things, OVER TIME.

At the same time the opposite is happening in the US, more focus and recruiting in other sports, ppl at the top of the game inspiring ppl to get involved in that sport for the first time, and yes there's loads of boxing in eastern europe now so it's likely more will compete at the top level.

These are all reasonable and backed up points so stop being so argumentative, it's not particularly helping you or anyone.

You seem to want to discount to whatever extent the size aspect to some extent, and the recruiting into other sports to whatever extent, leaving it not clearly what your concise view is. You do think some are recruited into other sports, but even that means some would be geting through, which they aren't. You don't want to accept the size excuse, so it almost says it's just plainly due to lack of skill!?

yes that what were are tell him but he dose not want to hear that the guys with size are in the NbA NFL NHL MLB were Most can make more in a year then they can make in a Boxing Career the highest paid Big man over here are not boxers but NBA NFL NHL etc

[FUC_U_PAYME]

One more thing what else can a big guy from Europe do other than boxing? Over here than can go to our other sports and make more money.

[Kris Silver]

Reasonable? So I was the first person to make the snide "real football" comment? Right. You guys don't even know when you're being derisive and dismissive, it's so ingrained.

I'm just not getting it.

Big ass Euros = great cardio
Big ass Americasn = bad cardio. Why

Saying real football is hardly snide, get a grip mate, you read too much into things. At best it was just a way to convey the meaning, at worst a minor little run of the mill comment, made on both sides as often as anything, don't be so touchy jeez. If Brits got touchy everytime such non issue comment was made there'd be no peace on ere. It's cool aight, no biggy, friendly fire.

It's so ingrained, what in our culture, what you mean? Only 1/2 ppl at most are quoting you so who on earth are you generalising? Again you need to keep it into context dude.

Your Euro vs American cardio thing further underlines your touchiness which really effects your ability to have an open debate. You've not really spoke of anything else in my post so one's still left a little perplexed by you. Again your just seeming like a touchy kid mate, sorry. Just saying

If anything Lucky's providing you with reasonable, non insulting excuses as to why American HW boxing is not good at the mo, and in decline. Recruiting, size which can be interlinked per my previous post, and a boom in eastern european boxing are very reasonable points which don't really take anything away from US potential, if anything quite the contrary, it's complimentary. He's saying if those things were reversed you could potentially be at the top of the HW game again. I'd be happy with that.

[larryx]

kobe?that guy can't fight

[El Chicano]

Allow me to clear this up, as you don't fully understand the message I am trying to convey, partly my own fault.

In the era's where Americans dominated heavyweight boxing, the average size of a heavyweight boxer was a lot smaller than it is now. Now the Eastern Europeans are involved, the average size has increased. The only Americans who are big enough to compete with these guys, although in other sports, would not have the stamina to box 12 rounds even if they were not. American fottball players, for example, only have to work for very short periods at a time, with long gaps in between (why else would a 1 hour game take anything up to 4?)

The American heavyweights at the moment are too small, and the ones who aren't struggle to box 12 rounds at championship level.

The fact is that Americans struggle because Eastern Europeans are too big for them at the moment.

Why is this guy trying to act all Socratic................. You don't know **** man, get outta here with your moronic theories. Eastern European fighters suck, it's just a matter of time before Klit gets his chin checked again. EE fighters are just a fad at the moment. Just cuz American Heavyweights have not been in the headlines lately, does not mean EE are dominating the division. Mike Tyson in his prime would have KO'd both Klit Bros and that ****** ass hairy Mo Fo Frankenstien piece of **** all in the same night.

[bsrizpac]

Saying real football is hardly snide, get a grip mate, you read too much into things. At best it was just a way to convey the meaning, at worst a minor little run of the mill comment, made on both sides as often as anything, don't be so touchy jeez. If Brits got touchy everytime such non issue comment was made there'd be no peace on ere. It's cool aight, no biggy, friendly fire.

It's so ingrained, what in our culture, what you mean? Only 1/2 ppl at most are quoting you so who on earth are you generalising? Again you need to keep it into context dude.

Your Euro vs American cardio thing further underlines your touchiness which really effects your ability to have an open debate. You've not really spoke of anything else in my post so one's still left a little perplexed by you. Again your just seeming like a touchy kid mate, sorry. Just saying

If anything Lucky's providing you with reasonable, non insulting excuses as to why American HW boxing is not good at the mo, and in decline. Recruiting, size which can be interlinked per my previous post, and a boom in eastern european boxing are very reasonable points which don't really take anything away from US potential, if anything quite the contrary, it's complimentary. He's saying if those things were reversed you could potentially be at the top of the HW game again. I'd be happy with that.

No your posts are pretty reasonable. HIS are not.

Now the cardio thing:

Great athletes are great athletes. They can develop the cardio for almost any sport if they have natural athleticism.

What luke doesn't get is this: What prevents a lot of athletes from a sport like boxing is the x factor: getting hit. That leads to questions of chin, heart, toughness that have nothing to do with athleticism.

But his point is fundamentally ******ed. He's saying basketball and NFL don't have great cardio. So therefore since our big guys go there, it's not an excuse they'd still suck on the prime level at boxing.

And yet what are Euros doing that allow them to have this massively "better" cardio at big sizes? Soccer?

And to that last point I haven't seen this mythical great cardio. Only guys I've seen that have it are Vitali and Lewis who was not Eastern european.

[ИATAS]

kobe?that guy can't fight

not now obviously, but if he was trained from an early age he probably could have been a great boxer.