The reason for the decline of American heavyweights?

[Kris Silver]

One more thing what else can a big guy from Europe do other than boxing? Over here than can go to our other sports and make more money.

Thanks for underlining your ignorance better than anyone else could. Previously, you also missed the point in what you were quoting, I accept so do most to various extents, the recruiting into other sports aspect. So you repeat yourself demonstrating your lack of following the point.

Onto sports my friend. Well there's a good number of sports in Europe, and well the rest of the world, which don't play Amercian only sports. Examples would be Tennis, there's many many eastern europeans at the top level, more so than America and Western Europe I'm pretty sure. Football is of course a massive one, Russia ain't that bad. Rugby they compete reasonably and better amongst they're Euro counterparts compared with the US. Athletics. Cycling. List goes on really. Anyway back to boxing...

[DiegoFuego]

Saying real football is hardly snide, get a grip mate, you read too much into things. At best it was just a way to convey the meaning, at worst a minor little run of the mill comment, made on both sides as often as anything, don't be so touchy jeez. If Brits got touchy everytime such non issue comment was made there'd be no peace on ere. It's cool aight, no biggy, friendly fire.

It's so ingrained, what in our culture, what you mean? Only 1/2 ppl at most are quoting you so who on earth are you generalising? Again you need to keep it into context dude.

Your Euro vs American cardio thing further underlines your touchiness which really effects your ability to have an open debate. You've not really spoke of anything else in my post so one's still left a little perplexed by you. Again your just seeming like a touchy kid mate, sorry. Just saying

If anything Lucky's providing you with reasonable, non insulting excuses as to why American HW boxing is not good at the mo, and in decline. Recruiting, size which can be interlinked per my previous post, and a boom in eastern european boxing are very reasonable points which don't really take anything away from US potential, if anything quite the contrary, it's complimentary. He's saying if those things were reversed you could potentially be at the top of the HW game again. I'd be happy with that.

wow, the way you ducked, dodged and hid here would make even Calzaghe proud

how about trying to answer ONE of his ****ing points instead of namecalling and telling him to calm down?

[FUC_U_PAYME]

Thanks for underlining your ignorance better than anyone else could. Previously, you also missed the point in what you were quoting, I accept so do most to various extents, the recruiting into other sports aspect. So you repeat yourself demonstrating your lack of following the point.

Onto sports my friend. Well there's a good number of sports in Europe, and well the rest of the world, which don't play Amercian only sports. Examples would be Tennis, there's many many eastern europeans at the top level, more so than America and Western Europe I'm pretty sure. Football is of course a massive one, Russia ain't that bad. Rugby they compete reasonably and better amongst they're Euro counterparts compared with the US. Athletics. Cycling. List goes on really. Anyway back to boxing...

no i was telling you where most of our big man go to other sports cause of the money. How much dose Wlad make for a fight compared to your top Rugby players and i was asking you what else would eqaul the amount of money a big man like Wlad could make instead of boxing

[Kris Silver]

No your posts are pretty reasonable. HIS are not.

Now the cardio thing:

Great athletes are great athletes. They can develop the cardio for almost any sport if they have natural athleticism.

What luke doesn't get is this: What prevents a lot of athletes from a sport like boxing is the x factor: getting hit. That leads to questions of chin, heart, toughness that have nothing to do with athleticism.

But his point is fundamentally ******ed. He's saying basketball and NFL don't have great cardio. So therefore since our big guys go there, it's not an excuse they'd still suck on the prime level at boxing.

And yet what are Euros doing that allow them to have this massively "better" cardio at big sizes? Soccer?

And to that last point I haven't seen this mythical great cardio. Only guys I've seen that have it are Vitali and Lewis who was not Eastern european.

Ok, your best post in this thread I'm starting to gauge what your getting at and it makes some sense. All I'd say is Lukes not that I noticed said or emphasised cario specifically so much. What I would say taking from his points, is there is something in it. If we all accept recruiting into sports from a young age is an aspect, then it does interlink with the size and athleticism thing. Here's why;

These kids getting recruited into other sports, are training off the playing fields to suite that sport. They're regime is slightly different, sometimes quite a lot. American Football they train suitably, to have short term explosive bursts of energy, then you can be out of breath and stop for at least a bit. Boxing that doesn't work, that guy would be knackered at they're average time of a minute or two, and wanting to pause as they're used to. Only they can't. They'll get a minute, in a minute. It's a different demand on the body. That's just one sport.

So whether I'm taking from or modifying Lukes point, I'm simply putting it that with young kids being recruited into other sports, even if they could be good boxers, by the time they're 18, they've often had more emphasis on ALL the things that help with one or two sports, not specifically with boxing. Therefore hindering they're chances in the boxing game. I think it's quite a realistic point, one that I think compliments American boxing. Because it's saying the issues are symptoms, not signs of a lack of potential.

[Kris Silver]

no i was telling you where most of our big man go to other sports cause of the money. How much dose Wlad make for a fight compared to your top Rugby players and i was asking you what else would eqaul the amount of money a big man like Wlad could make instead of boxing

Dude your repeating **** ppl on all sides have mostly said and accepted. Thats how lame your posts are and obviously not offering much. Rugby players often don't make much at the top level, less so than boxers much less, more so lately as it's getting bigger. It's the national sport in Wales for eg. You can't compare the cultures tho dude, it's kinda like chalk and cheese. With due respect, some euro's for good or bad, aren't as obsessed about money. Dude that side is pretty much done anyway move on...

[Kris Silver]

wow, the way you ducked, dodged and hid here would make even Calzaghe proud

how about trying to answer ONE of his ****ing points instead of namecalling and telling him to calm down?

Strange he was fairly happy with it. I didn't really name call either lol. I did address some of his points, if you can't comprehend and read between the lines don't blame me or resort to bottomless accusations, ironically not addressing any point. Your post oddly, offers absolute zero, apart from swearing, attacking, and accusing of not addressing a point, whilst simultaneously not making any point on the topic.

[bsrizpac]

Ok, your best post in this thread I'm starting to gauge what your getting at and it makes some sense. All I'd say is Lukes not that I noticed said or emphasised cario specifically so much. What I would say taking from his points, is there is something in it. If we all accept recruiting into sports from a young age is an aspect, then it does interlink with the size and athleticism thing. Here's why;

These kids getting recruited into other sports, are training off the playing fields to suite that sport. They're regime is slightly different, sometimes quite a lot. American Football they train suitably, to have short term explosive bursts of energy, then you can be out of breath and stop for at least a bit. Boxing that doesn't work, that guy would be knackered at they're average time of a minute or two, and wanting to pause as they're used to. Only they can't. They'll get a minute, in a minute. It's a different demand on the body. That's just one sport.

So whether I'm taking from or modifying Lukes point, I'm simply putting it that with young kids being recruited into other sports, even if they could be good boxers, by the time they're 18, they've often had more emphasis on ALL the things that help with one or two sports, not specifically with boxing. Therefore hindering they're chances in the boxing game. I think it's quite a realistic point, one that I think compliments American boxing. Because it's saying the issues are symptoms, not signs of a lack of potential.

Right but as you said who cares what NFL training is like. Those are elite athletes. Start them over from the beginning and barring issues of chin or heart, they'd do fine with boxing cardio. To think otherwise is silly.

[Kris Silver]

Right but as you said who cares what NFL training is like. Those are elite athletes. Start them over from the beginning and barring issues of chin or heart, they'd do fine with boxing cardio. To think otherwise is silly.

I'm saying the symptomatic focus of training styles, not just cardio vascular, are more focused now towards other sports. There are subtle differences in training for different sports, not just cardio. Those differences, make a difference. Not saying some couldn't come over ok. But it's certainly an advantage having a focus on training your whole body, mind and everything on boxing, not another game, from a young age.

That isnt happening as much in the USA now, hence that advantage isn't there. Whilst for the old Soviet Union, it's there more than ever. It's a total contrast and the results are there to see before us. It's most definitely a factor, at least.

[duffgun]

You guys make great points. People always talk about how Soviets werent allowed to go into the pros, but their best fighters were already being beaten by young versions of Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc.
Ive never heard a good response to this, and Id honestly like to hear one.


and theres actually not a huge size difference between the fighters nowadays and the fighters of old. Wlad Klitschko, Valuev? Theyre exceptions. haha. but otherwise, the other top champs around like Ibragimov and Chagaev are NOT big guys at all, and could easily go to the Cruiserweight division if they wanted. They even kind of have extra baggage.

hell, even Dennis Boytsov, Russia's best heavyweight prospect at the moment, is considered undersized. When David Haye starts fighting at heavy, hes going to be bigger than these guys.

and then you have examples like James Toney and Chris Byrd somehow doing well in today's heavyweight division...and theyre just blown up guys meant to fight at other weight classes. unfortunately, they got old.

Yeah thats what i have always said outside of Wlad and Valuev the heavyweight size is no different to the 70's and 80's. I remember watching Joe Frazier take apart the massive Buster Mathis who was a very skilled big guy, size is not everything and when your to big its a disadvantage.

[Leo Pradun]

face the facts haters american hw's are **** and its not ging to get better anytime soon. The best american hw is tony thompson. The hw division doesnt suck and american hw's havent been anything in this sport since Lennox took over the division. I dont get what was so good abouyt the Tyson days? Tyson faught bums and he just walked all over them. In my opinion the division was the same if not worse in the Tyson days as it is now. Forget about american hw's rulling the division I dont think it will ever happen again