Best Featherweight of this Era?

[Left Hook Tua]

oh, of course, its nothing to be taken seriously.

besides, when it gets down to it, this question is opinion based anyway...so theres no factual answer.

whatever tho, lets enjoy pacquiao's career. worry about how good he is compared to others later...

true. he has a chance to solidify his legacy in the next year or two though.

david diaz for a belt at 135 , a brutal fight with juan diaz if juan can get his belts back from nate or maybe joel's belt , a rubber match with his toughest matchup in juan manuel marquez , a mismatch with ricky hatton for the 140 title , casamayor's lineal bet at 135 , joan guzman and/or edwin valero at 130 or 135......

win a few of those and that's one hell of a resume.

[bestboxingonly]

i can't believe naseem hamed is not getting more votes. where's all the brits?

wins over johnson , mccullough , kelley , vazquez , medina , soto? not good enough? those were great wins. i know he lost to barrera but he wasn't prime anymore and it was his ONLY lost!

I think they're voting on the pacman

[loui_ludwig]

Naseem Hamed
36 wins 1 Lost
Wins over: Agapito Sanchez, Kevin Kelly, Wayne McCullough
Lost 2: Marco Antontion Barera
Titles: WBO featherweight. According to boxrec, he also won the IBF but only had it for a shot time(strip of title?)

Marco Antonio Barrera
63 wins 6 lost
Wins over: Erik Morales, Hamed, kevin Kelley, Sanchez, Kennedy McKinney, Johnny Tapia, Rocky Juarez.
Lost to: Junior Jones, Manny Pacquiao, and Juan Manual Marquez
Titles: WBO super bantamweight, WBC featherweight, WBC and IBF super feahteriweight. MAB was stripped of featherweight title.

Erik Morales
48 wins 6 lost
Wins over: Barrera, Pacquiao, Daniel Zaragoza, J. Jones, Kelley, McCullough, In Ji Chi, Jesus Chavez, Paulie Ayala
Lost to: Pacquiao and Barrera
Titles: WBC super bantam, feather, and super featherweight

Manny Pacquiao:
46 wins 3 lost 2 draw
Wins Over: Barrera, Morales, JM Marquez, Larios, Solis, Ledwaba
Lost to: Erik Morales
Draw: JMM, Sanchez(no contest)
Titles: Ring feather and super featherweight, IBF super bantam, WBC super featherweight.

Juan Manuel Marquez:
48 wins 4 lost 1 draw
Wins over: Barrera, Juarez
Lost to: Pacquiao, John, Norwood
Draw: Pacquiao
Titles: WBA and IBF featherwieght, WBC super featherweigtht

I apologized if there are mistakes or not included fighters notable or rank in top 10 in each featherweight division.

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I voted for Pac but want to change it to Erik Morales.

1. Morales
2. Barrera
3. Pacquiao

[Left Hook Tua]

I think they're voting on the pacman

the brits should give naseem a few votes though. he was incredible in his prime as short as it was. definitely should get more votes than marquez imo.

hamed held the wbo belt for 6+ years. won the ibf belt in '97 and won the wbc belt in '99. his only loss is to barrera a HOFer. losing your belts due to ABC org politics and losing your only fight to a HOFer should be less damaging to your resume than losing it to chris john.

[Left Hook Tua]

Naseem Hamed
36 wins 1 Lost
Wins over: Agapito Sanchez, Kevin Kelly, Wayne McCullough
Lost 2: Marco Antontion Barera
Titles: WBO featherweight. According to boxrec, he also won the IBF but only had it for a shot time(strip of title?)

Marco Antonio Barrera
63 wins 6 lost
Wins over: Erik Morales, Hamed, kevin Kelley, Sanchez, Kennedy McKinney, Johnny Tapia, Rocky Juarez.
Lost to: Junior Jones, Manny Pacquiao, and Juan Manual Marquez
Titles: WBO super bantamweight, WBC featherweight, WBC and IBF super feahteriweight. MAB was stripped of featherweight title.

Erik Morales
48 wins 6 lost
Wins over: Barrera, Pacquiao, Daniel Zaragoza, J. Jones, Kelley, McCullough, In Ji Chi, Jesus Chavez, Paulie Ayala
Lost to: Pacquiao and Barrera
Titles: WBC super bantam, feather, and super featherweight

Manny Pacquiao:
46 wins 3 lost 2 draw
Wins Over: Barrera, Morales, JM Marquez, Larios, Solis, Ledwaba
Lost to: Erik Morales
Draw: JMM, Sanchez(no contest)
Titles: Ring feather and super featherweight, IBF super bantam, WBC super featherweight.

Juan Manuel Marquez:
48 wins 4 lost 1 draw
Wins over: Barrera, Juarez
Lost to: Pacquiao, John, Norwood
Draw: Pacquiao
Titles: WBA and IBF featherwieght, WBC super featherweigtht

I apologized if there are mistakes or not included fighters notable or rank in top 10 in each featherweight division.

#################################################
I voted for Pac but want to change it to Erik Morales.

1. Morales
2. Barrera
3. Pacquiao

hamed did win the ibf belt and wbc belt as well. he beat all the wba , wbc , ibf title holders as well but was either stripped of it or they stripped the other guy for fighting hamed right before hamed beat them. if it wasn't for ABC org politics hamed would've held all the major belts all at the same time. don't know if he ever was awarded the WORLD belt but if it wasn't for the politics between the sanctioning bodies he would've had all four which meant an instant WORLD belt from RING.

[BennyST]

since you can obviously look up boxrec. you can look up the fact that he was 17 yrs. old when that happened. how well would you handle a body (or low blow) shot from a grown man when you were 17?

if we can agree that barrera was a little past his prime (but still close to it) for the 1st fight with manny and that morales was past his prime by the time of his 3 fights with manny , i think we can agree that you can't hold a 17 yr. old kid's loss against him.

Since I can look up boxrec? Huh?

Sure thing mate You may get all your info from boxrec but I actually watch all the fights. Don't exactly know what you're ****ting on me for anyway? You may want to go look at that shot again because it was not a body shot. It was right on the point of the chin...yes, I know it looks a bit strange but it was right on the chin. Not a body shot. If we hold Junior Jones' losses against Barrera why not hold Torrecampo's and Singsurat's against Pac? Like you said, a loss is a loss and a win, a win, at the end of the day. Morales/Barrera only lost to the best, so it has to count for something.

I don't think at all that Barrera was shot when he first fought Manny. He was not exactly himself and looked like **** but he was not shot. He was the second time he fought him.

Anyway, I dig what you're getting at by saying Manny has some big names (Morales, Barrera, Marquez) and I believe you were also saying they still can't match up to the amount of great names both Morales and Barrera fought.

At the end of the day though, it is still Barrera and Morales in front of the other three by a fair margin. You could put the other three in whatever position with Manny ahead of the other two or behind Marquez or behind Hamed and in front of Marquez but it still won't change that Morales and Barrera had much bigger careers over a much longer period of time beating a much larger amount of top names than the other guys. The other three could go any way with Pac the likely to be third.

[BennyST]

Manny Pacquiao:
46 wins 3 lost 2 draw
Wins Over: Barrera, Morales, JM Marquez, Larios, Solis, Ledwaba
Lost to: Erik Morales
Draw: JMM, Sanchez(no contest)
Titles: Ring feather and super featherweight, IBF super bantam, WBC super featherweight.

Juan Manuel Marquez:
48 wins 4 lost 1 draw
Wins over: Barrera, Juarez
Lost to: Pacquiao, John, Norwood
Draw: Pacquiao
Titles: WBA and IBF featherwieght, WBC super featherweigtht

I just thought I might throw a couple of extra names for you. If you're going to include guys like Solis, Larios and Ledwaba for Pac and only put in Barrera and Juarez for Marquez...well, we must rectify that, as he has a few more better names than that (a hell of a lot better than a guy like Solis anyway).

Marquez wins: Barrera, Juarez, Manuel Medina, Derrick 'Smoke' Gainer, Agapito Sanchez, Robbie Peden.

[Left Hook Tua]

Since I can look up boxrec? Huh?

Sure thing mate You may get all your info from boxrec but I actually watch all the fights. Don't exactly know what you're ****ting on me for anyway? You may want to go look at that shot again because it was not a body shot. It was right on the point of the chin...yes, I know it looks a bit strange but it was right on the chin. Not a body shot. If we hold Junior Jones' losses against Barrera why not hold Torrecampo's and Singsurat's against Pac? Like you said, a loss is a loss and a win, a win, at the end of the day. Morales/Barrera only lost to the best, so it has to count for something.

I don't think at all that Barrera was shot when he first fought Manny. He was not exactly himself and looked like **** but he was not shot. He was the second time he fought him.

Anyway, I dig what you're getting at by saying Manny has some big names (Morales, Barrera, Marquez) and I believe you were also saying they still can't match up to the amount of great names both Morales and Barrera fought.

At the end of the day though, it is still Barrera and Morales in front of the other three by a fair margin. You could put the other three in whatever position with Manny ahead of the other two or behind Marquez or behind Hamed and in front of Marquez but it still won't change that Morales and Barrera had much bigger careers over a much longer period of time beating a much larger amount of top names than the other guys. The other three could go any way with Pac the likely to be third.

i think you misunderstood me and no i don't get all my info from boxrec but it is informative sometimes. i'm gonna have to look for a video of it. i don't have that one in my collection and never got to see it live. (i didn't start following manny 'til i saw him after the ledwaba fight in 2000) i've seen it a few times and it looked like a body shot to me and i swear the announcer said it was a body punch. gonna have to look at it again.

and no i wasn't ****ting on you. i voted exactly as you did with barrera and morales on top. i just play devil's advocate because i have my viewpoints but also like to hear the other side as well. unlike some on this forum i like to hear everyone point of view because you never know when someone can change your mind.

as far as not counting losses. someone pointed out marco's and erik's losses were past prime and it's understandable because of their many wars but if you are not gonna count someone's losses because they're worn out , with that kind of argument , you can't count a 17 yr. old kid's loss at the beginning of his career as well.

[BennyST]

i think you misunderstood me and no i don't get all my info from boxrec but it is informative sometimes. i'm gonna have to look for a video of it. i don't have that one in my collection and never got to see it live. (i didn't start following manny 'til i saw him after the ledwaba fight in 2000) i've seen it a few times and it looked like a body shot to me and i swear the announcer said it was a body punch. gonna have to look at it again.

and no i wasn't ****ting on you. i voted exactly as you did with barrera and morales on top. i just play devil's advocate because i have my viewpoints but also like to hear the other side as well. unlike some on this forum i like to hear everyone point of view because you never know when someone can change your mind.

as far as not counting losses. someone pointed out marco's and erik's losses were past prime and it's understandable because of their many wars but if you are not gonna count someone's losses because their worn out with that kind of argument you can't count a 17 yr. old kids loss at the beginning of his career as well.

Cool.

Yeah, it was a funny shot. It's very difficult to see it properly but it was straight on the point of the chin. Perfect shot. I think because it sort of goes down from his chin to his chest it looks a bit more like a body shot and it's so fast and out of the blue that it's hard to catch exactly but definitely a head shot. Also, from Mannie's reaction he is so dazed and can't stand up but is not holding his stomach or in any body pain, doubled up etc. that all the signs point to a chin KO as well.

As for losses, it is hard to judge how losses late in the career effect a fighter. I mean you can't take some losses at the end of someones long career to a young guy and say that the young guy was better. It doesn't work like that (yes, I know you know this, it's not directed at you LHT) otherwise you could use that argument to say that because Kostya Tszyu knocked Julio Cesar Chavez out in six rounds he was better than him...? Or that Tarver was better than Jones Jr.

Just because Manny beat Morales and Barrera doesn't mean he was better than them. You have to look at the whole career and what each guy has done beforehand. It also depends on how guys come back from losses. Pac came back from those losses and learned from them. He didn't necessarily change his style or become a better boxer like Barrera did after losing to 'Poison'. He changed his whole style around slowly over the course of his career with really amazing results.

The other thing about later losses is the way it happens. When you are shot or old you actually can't fight anymore. It's not like when you are young and still have some rough edges. When you get to the shot stage you are losing because, even though you can see the openings and shots, your reactions aren't quick enough and you just can't get the shots off. Your legs also can't carry you twelve rounds anymore and when you get hit in the body, instead of it not effecting you, it feels as though each shot turns your legs to jelly and your arms to stone. Very different way of losing to when you're young and just get flat out KO'd.

The other thing is those losses to Manny are counted by everyone. Barera was counted out many times over his career as being shot and he was able to come back from most of them. After the third Morales fight he started dropping off very quickly in his skills and age and the wars were really starting to catch up to him by that stage. Morales went from being one of the best fighters of the era to being the guy that lost twice to Pacquiao. I'm still stunned that he doesn't get more credit for beating Pac the first time. If you watch his whole career the amount of fights he had that were just as brutal, and more so, than the first Pac fight is just freaky!!! I simply cannot understand how he was still going as strong after so many heavy wars for so long. He really never would have lost those fights to Pac, Raheem and Diaz a few years earlier. No chance. We're just lucky to be seeing this era for featherweights.

[Left Hook Tua]

Cool.

Yeah, it was a funny shot. It's very difficult to see it properly but it was straight on the point of the chin. Perfect shot. I think because it sort of goes down from his chin to his chest it looks a bit more like a body shot and it's so fast and out of the blue that it's hard to catch exactly but definitely a head shot. Also, from Mannie's reaction he is so dazed and can't stand up but is not holding his stomach or in any body pain, doubled up etc. that all the signs point to a chin KO as well.

As for losses, it is hard to judge how losses late in the career effect a fighter. I mean you can't take some losses at the end of someones long career to a young guy and say that the young guy was better. It doesn't work like that (yes, I know you know this, it's not directed at you LHT) otherwise you could use that argument to say that because Kostya Tszyu knocked Julio Cesar Chavez out in six rounds he was better than him...? Or that Tarver was better than Jones Jr.

Just because Manny beat Morales and Barrera doesn't mean he was better than them. You have to look at the whole career and what each guy has done beforehand. It also depends on how guys come back from losses. Pac came back from those losses and learned from them. He didn't necessarily change his style or become a better boxer like Barrera did after losing to 'Poison'. He changed his whole style around slowly over the course of his career with really amazing results.

The other thing about later losses is the way it happens. When you are shot or old you actually can't fight anymore. It's not like when you are young and still have some rough edges. When you get to the shot stage you are losing because, even though you can see the openings and shots, your reactions aren't quick enough and you just can't get the shots off. Your legs also can't carry you twelve rounds anymore and when you get hit in the body, instead of it not effecting you, it feels as though each shot turns your legs to jelly and your arms to stone. Very different way of losing to when you're young and just get flat out KO'd.

The other thing is those losses to Manny are counted by everyone. Barera was counted out many times over his career as being shot and he was able to come back from most of them. After the third Morales fight he started dropping off very quickly in his skills and age and the wars were really starting to catch up to him by that stage. Morales went from being one of the best fighters of the era to being the guy that lost twice to Pacquiao. I'm still stunned that he doesn't get more credit for beating Pac the first time. If you watch his whole career the amount of fights he had that were just as brutal, and more so, than the first Pac fight is just freaky!!! I simply cannot understand how he was still going as strong after so many heavy wars for so long. He really never would have lost those fights to Pac, Raheem and Diaz a few years earlier. No chance. We're just lucky to be seeing this era for featherweights.

i understand what you are saying about losses late in a career. what i like to do is look at their fights after that to tell if they had anything left. i also like to look at the matchups of the respective styles and attributes. for instance a lot of people have used the excuse that juan manuel is better than marco and erik because he did better against manny. i totally disagree with that. juan manuel's style is perfect for manny. when you're fighting a guy who depends on his speed and power but isn't technically correct , marquez's counterpunching style will give that guy problems. some people are just bad matchups for some fighters. norton it can be argued beat ali 3 times. that doesn't make norton the better fighter.

in the case of this 4 i think prime for prime erik beats pac head to head because of being the naturally longer and bigger guy and his granite chin negates manny's greatest strength which is his power and marco is just a bad matchup for him. marco will alway give erik headaches and in his prime beats juan but manny's style and speed will give him problems prime or not. in juan manuel's case no one can look good against him but at the same time he can't dominate another great fighter either hence all his close , questionable losses.

in the end i think erik and marco will be battling it out even in the history books as far as best featherweight (122-130) of this era. depending on the rubber match with marquez and how he does at 135 , manny could have the most impressive resume of them all from flyweight-lightweight and juan manuel will be looked upon as the odd man out whose skills and talent are up there with the other 3 but for whatever reason his resume won't measure up to the rest and in turn be viewed as a level below the other 3.