the scoring of Ali vs. Frazier I

[The Noose]

Now that I can remove any bias I have, 11-2-2 for Frazier is a pretty good score. Ali takes 2 and 9, rounds 1 and 4 even, the rest for Frazier.

It was quite lopsided if one is unbiased. You guys need to quit being Ali nuthuggers.

Ironic u talking about nuthugging.

[M26]

Obviously? Frazier easily caught up to him. Frazier had some of his best moments when Ali was moving around. He had no difficulty landing shots.

Hmmm... I remember him suddenly starting to dance around somewhere in the midrounds, and then Frazier could barely lay a glove on him. But Ali only danced in few and shortspanned spurts in this fight. He mostly stood his ground, trying to beat Frazier to the punch. This is why he lost.

[Frazier's 15th round]

I'll check it again sometime, I know at least once Frazier does very well when Ali moves around.

[K-DOGG]

I wish my VCR hadn't eaten my copy of this fight.


It was close; but Frazier is easily the winner.

[BoxingFan2]

I stay with my score 8-6-1 for Ali on round basis, but I agree with decision going to Frazier. His two big ruonds 11 and 15 gave him victory. Rounds 7,10 and 13 were close. I gave round 7 to Frazier, 10 to Ali, and 13 I scored EVEN. If I give all those three rounds to Frazier, because they were close, and it's not right for those 2 big Frazier's rounds to be scored as other rounds, then I have fight scored 8-7 for Frazier.

[Brassangel]

I just finished the video...again...
Technical scoring: 8-6-1 Ali
Winner: Frazier
How is this possible?

The more I watch it, the closer the fight looks. A lot of the rounds that people give to Frazier simply because he was working harder while Ali danced and clinched speak volumes about the 180's people take on these forums. People will often speak of the methods for beating a swarmer, and these tactics tend to include firing quick, point-scoring shots, and clinching; or, overpowering the swarmer with long, powerful punches. Since Ali was hardly capable of the latter, he decided to win the early rounds, and clinch Frazier when he brought the attack in the mid-to-late rounds. In this case, however, Ali is being criticized, and his points taken away for clinching a fighter that relies on being free to set up his power punches. I think that this was a tactic for denying Frazier his power, moreso than a lack of conditioning (or ring rust) on Ali's part.

As a side note, I don't know if the dancing Ali would have done so much better as to make it lopsided, as Frazier was very adept at cutting off the ring when he had to, and he rarely tired. The younger Ali probably couldn't take the same punishment as the post-layoff Ali could. Even though he was more agile, his hands were less busy in the early rounds and thus, Joe may have gotten ahead on points simply by working harder while Ali pranced around.

And back we go...

Don't get me wrong: Frazier is my favorite. I love his style, his work ethic, the way he fired in such controlled bursts; but Ali simply won more rounds based on the scoring system. Period. What is being overlooked here, however, by the people who felt as though Ali should have won, is the fact that the rounds Frazier won were, on average, more impressive than the rounds that Ali won. Add to that the fact that Frazier won the rounds at their end, after taking a lot of snapshots from Ali. Also, had the fight gone beyond 15 rounds, Frazier would likely have handed Ali his first knockout loss. Smokin' Joe simply had amazing stamina, perhaps the best in heavyweight history. Because of these reasons, yes, Joe Frazier wins the fight.

If the answers seem to flip-flop, that's because the scoring, the 60's Ali vs. the 70's Ali, and the fight itself could go either way. And even though Ali himself eventually admitted he lost the fight, he sighted on other occassions that he "whooped him" and "...I know it wasn't close.."; also, he said the 1967 version of himself probably would have lost to the Frazier from 1970 for similar reasons listed above. I'm basically stating here that a fighter's own words will flip-flop more often than the observers.

And on and on...

[Kid Achilles]

It all depends on your criteria for scoring fights. I score heavier punches much higher than light ones, and so if fighter A clearly hurts fighter B a few times in a round I'll give him that round even if he's getting outboxed or outlanded. Some people just look at who's landing more punches, and for some reason on this website that's just become the norm but in reality there are different ways of scoring a fight, different things to look at. That's part of the reason we have 3 judges today.

PS I had Frazier winning by a clear margin.

[BoxingFan2]

I agree with most of that what you wrote, but I do see Ali from 1967 beating Frazier. Ali's punches were much sharper, his reflexes were better. He could dance away from any trouble. Watch him fight Patterson in 1965 and then in 1972, and see the diference, even though Patterson was in his prime in 1965. Also, in 1972 Ali was better than still rusty 1971 Ali that fought Frazier. Watch Ali - Chuvalo I and II and see how much better was young Ali.

[Kid Achilles]

Patterson had a back injury in that first fight. That's the only reason he does so horribly compared to the 2nd fight.

[BoxingFan2]

Kid Achilles,
Power punches are power punches, and Ali hit Frazier with his own power punches. You can't tell whose punches hurt more, Ali had tendecy to move his head when get hit. You would think when watching it that he was hurt more than he was because of his head movement but actually it helped him. Frazier would just go through punches, so those punches hurt more than they would if he knew to move his head with punch.