Buy or Sell: Drawing the Color Line

[Anthony342]

Wasn't drawing the color line just because fighting black contenders didn't draw money or tickets back then? At least not in the US, until Joe Louis came along? Then all of a sudden white America thought it was acceptable if this guy won the title. And I believe only then it was because people didn't wanna see Braddock fight a German, Schmeling for the title because we were at war with Germany right? Even though Schmeling beat Louis and earned the title shot?

[travestyny]

Wasn't drawing the color line just because fighting black contenders didn't draw money or tickets back then? At least not in the US, until Joe Louis came along? Then all of a sudden white America thought it was acceptable if this guy won the title. And I believe only then it was because people didn't wanna see Braddock fight a German, Schmeling for the title because we were at war with Germany right? Even though Schmeling beat Louis and earned the title shot?

I'm not sure if we can say they didn't draw. There were apparently 20,000 to see Johnson vs. Burns with another 30,000 outside around the stadium. Also, Johnson vs. Jeffries definitely drew, and that one was in the US. There was public clamor for Dempsey vs. Wills so I believe it would have drawn.

[Anthony342]

I'm not sure if we can say they didn't draw. There were apparently 20,000 to see Johnson vs. Burns with another 30,000 outside around the stadium. Also, Johnson vs. Jeffries definitely drew, and that one was in the US. There was public clamor for Dempsey vs. Wills so I believe it would have drawn.

So then white champions were just afraid of losing their titles to black challengers?

[billeau2]

Good post, Bill.

When you mentioned the relationship between Blacks and the Irish, I immediately thought of the riots in New York City during the civil war. When the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, and the new draft order given, many of the Irish rioted, targeting blacks. A Black orphanage was even burned to the ground. The Irish didn't want to go to war to free the Blacks because they felt Blacks would replace them as workers. They also were resentful that Blacks weren't drafted themselves at the time because they weren't considered citizens.

I also think it may be a bit more complicated than John L. put it. I've never subscribed to the notion that fighters are afraid of other fighters. But I think there is a difference between being afraid of a fighter and being afraid to lose to a fighter. Unfortunately, losing to a fighter of a different race meant a little extra to lots of people at this time.

The war riots encompassed a lot of things... The Irish also did not want to migrate and go into a war from the boat, so to speak. There was class issues, the usual... "How come Bill and Jim who have means aren't sending their kids to the war" which caused the riots to go uptown and threaten the well healed.

I still think the day to day in the urban areas was cooperative. Rioters always are a relative amount as compared to a group as a whole... I also think the politics at the time Tamney, etc... tried to divide the Irish and Blacks. When I was very young you still had Irish enclaves in East Harlem lol. I used to play with some of the Irish kids... I remember them because, coming from a non-religious family like I did, I was told I would Burn in Hell...

Yes... racial chauvanism was very real. It sounds means spirited and I wonder what the actual perception at the time was. I mean as recently as the ninities I remember working at the Marriot Marquis at 42nd street,as a server, bartender... The place was a real NYC polyglot. The thing is people would greet each other using language that would have gotten all of us cancelled these days! But it was said with affection.

I mention this because I wonder what the actual emotional affect was when people used the racial chauvanism card: So when Johnson was called a laughing Ethiopian and jeffries was scolded into fufilling "White Man's Burden" by London... Was London spiteful and hateful as he sounded? Was it keyed language of one sort, or another, was it tongue in cheek? Was it considered competition, fair play?

Obviously to me, given my background racial chauvanism sounded like it was a big fat blind spot... "err yes Senator here is the document, sign under "all men are created equal... Oh I see your pen is broken? I will have the slave fetch you another one!" Here is the best example I can think of from one of my favorite movies... You can cut to 6 minutes for the punchline regarding cultural blindness.

[travestyny]

So then white champions were just afraid of losing their titles to black challengers?

Honestly, that's my hunch. I think they didn't want it on their legacies to be considered "race traitors," though of course that label is absolutely ridiculous.

[travestyny]

The war riots encompassed a lot of things... The Irish also did not want to migrate and go into a war from the boat, so to speak. There was class issues, the usual... "How come Bill and Jim who have means aren't sending their kids to the war" which caused the riots to go uptown and threaten the well healed.

I still think the day to day in the urban areas was cooperative. Rioters always are a relative amount as compared to a group as a whole... I also think the politics at the time Tamney, etc... tried to divide the Irish and Blacks. When I was very young you still had Irish enclaves in East Harlem lol. I used to play with some of the Irish kids... I remember them because, coming from a non-religious family like I did, I was told I would Burn in Hell...

Yes... racial chauvanism was very real. It sounds means spirited and I wonder what the actual perception at the time was. I mean as recently as the ninities I remember working at the Marriot Marquis at 42nd street,as a server, bartender... The place was a real NYC polyglot. The thing is people would greet each other using language that would have gotten all of us cancelled these days! But it was said with affection.

I mention this because I wonder what the actual emotional affect was when people used the racial chauvanism card: So when Johnson was called a laughing Ethiopian and jeffries was scolded into fufilling "White Man's Burden" by London... Was London spiteful and hateful as he sounded? Was it keyed language of one sort, or another, was it tongue in cheek? Was it considered competition, fair play?

Obviously to me, given my background racial chauvanism sounded like it was a big fat blind spot... "err yes Senator here is the document, sign under "all men are created equal... Oh I see your pen is broken? I will have the slave fetch you another one!" Here is the best example I can think of from one of my favorite movies... You can cut to 6 minutes for the punchline regarding cultural blindness.

lol. Ghost Dog! My favorite is always when he busts out with the Flava Flav rhymes

[billeau2]

lol. Ghost Dog! My favorite is always when he busts out with the Flava Flav rhymes

LOl, I love that movie. I love that scene... It was played so well, the sort of looks on their faces, just a classic. The mob head, I forget his name, was an incredible actor. He was multigenerational, a heavy from way back. Manchurian Candidate, Sharkey's Machine... Great actor.

This is my favorite Jaramusch film... Down by Law was another great film of his.

[travestyny]

LOl, I love that movie. I love that scene... It was played so well, the sort of looks on their faces, just a classic. The mob head, I forget his name, was an incredible actor. He was multigenerational, a heavy from way back. Manchurian Candidate, Sharkey's Machine... Great actor.

This is my favorite Jaramusch film... Down by Law was another great film of his.

Damn. You took me wayyyy back with Sharkey's Machine. Haven't heard that title in ages!

[billeau2]

Damn. You took me wayyyy back with Sharkey's Machine. Haven't heard that title in ages!

Very underated police drama imo. Henry Silva (that is the actor) is a great heavy in that drama.

[Willie Pep 229]

Ten Protests in American Sports

NYU “Bates Seven,” 1940-41

Unlike professional baseball, intercollegiate athletics outside the south were not uniformly segregated before World War II. They were, however, often subject to so-called “gentleman’s agreements,” whereby teams featuring black athletes might be asked to hold those players back when playing road games against segregated southern schools, or when playing in bowl games played in southern states. In the fall of 1940, the University of Missouri asked New York University (NYU)’s football team to hold back black starting fullback Leonard Bates from their upcoming game in Columbia, Missouri. NYU ordinarily respected such requests; Bates, in fact, had been informed of the possibility when he joined the team.

Once made public, however, the request led to a series of campus protests demanding that Bates be permitted to play. About two thousand protesters picketed the NYU administration building on October 18, wielding signs such as “Bates Must Play” and “No Missouri Compromise.” The protests didn’t end with the Missouri game – from which Bates was indeed held back – and continued on into 1941, as NYU continued to respect the “gentleman’s agreement” in other sports as well. Ultimately, seven NYU students at the forefront of the protest received three-month suspensions for circulating a petition without permission. “Gentleman’s agreements” began to fade after the war, though college athletics in the former Confederacy were among the very last institutions in the nation to desegregate in the wake of the civil rights movement.