Prime Langford vs. Prime Johnson

[travestyny]

1 ) How care what he liked, He signed it. He said he honor it. He did not.

One more time. The February fight was canceled once Tommy Burns signed. No one was expecting a February fight, dumbass. lol.

2 ) Burns lost in 1908, we are talking about 1909 + the numerous other offers that never happened with Johnson just because..

So Jack Johnson was to train on the boat from Australia??? lmao.


Dude, stop embarrassing yourself. Give up.

[travestyny]

+ the numerous other offers that never happened with Johnson just because..

The numerous other ones. Like the $50,000 Australia fight that was pulled by the promoters. lol. You thought you had something there, didn't you?

Not the only time you did that. You were also talking about this one. But after it was proven Langford ducked this, you went quiet on it. Didn't even say a peep about it.

Jack Johnson was at ringside for a fight in Philadelphia. He got up and gave a speech that he would fight any man at the club over 6 rounds for $10,000, calling out Langford's name specifically.

The manager of the club, Jack O'brien, apparently got Johnson and Langford both to agree. They would fight for the $10,000 purse, post forfeitures of $2500 each, and there would be a side bet of $10,000.

Fight never comes off. Clearly Johnson ducked it, right?


Johnson claims Langford was the one who ran off:

I went to Philadelphia to Jack O'brien's club. Jack offered $10,000 for me to fight Langford. I grabbed at it, and the match was made all excepting getting Mistah Langford to sign. He ran away. The next thing I hear the Langford man was going to Europe as fast as he could.

Clearly Johnson must be lying, right?

Sam Langford, who has been clamorous in his desire to box Jack Johnson before the American A.C., Philadelphia, has left us.

O'brien claimed to have a contract with the heavyweight champion to box Sam Langford before his club, but Sam spoiled the play by quietly packing up and sailing for England.

You and GhostofForgery were busy claiming this was a Johnson duck. So now that we know the truth, did Langford duck Johnson then??? Let us know, bro.

[Willie Pep 229]

The numerous other ones. Like the $50,000 Australia fight that was pulled by the promoters. lol. You thought you had something there, didn't you?

Not the only time you did that. You were also talking about this one. But after it was proven Langford ducked this, you went quiet on it. Didn't even say a peep about it.

Jack Johnson was at ringside for a fight in Philadelphia. He got up and gave a speech that he would fight any man at the club over 6 rounds for $10,000, calling out Langford's name specifically.

The manager of the club, Jack O'brien, apparently got Johnson and Langford both to agree. They would fight for the $10,000 purse, post forfeitures of $2500 each, and there would be a side bet of $10,000.

Fight never comes off. Clearly Johnson ducked it, right?


Johnson claims Langford was the one who ran off:

Clearly Johnson must be lying, right?

You and GhostofForgery were busy claiming this was a Johnson duck. So now that we know the truth, did Langford duck Johnson then??? Let us know, bro.

You have made a strong argument that Johnson wasn't ducking Langford.

But you have unintentionally greatly discredited Langford's legacy. --- Does Sam get to have a voice in this?

The sources are Johnson and a disgruntled promoter who saw a big fight slip through his hands (because of Sam). --- As it reads now it doesn't look good for Langford, but we need to reserve some judgment until we can hear (if ever) his side of the story.

E.g. Maybe the money split wasn't right.

Also what is with the 'short fight' requirement? Was Johnson putting his title on the line for a six round fight?

[travestyny]

You have made a strong argument that Johnson wasn't ducking Langford.

But you have unintentionally greatly discredited Langford's legacy. --- Does Sam get to have a voice in this?

The sources are Johnson and a disgruntled promoter who saw a big fight slip through his hands (because of Sam). --- As it reads now it doesn't look good for Langford, but we need to reserve some judgment until we can hear (if ever) his side of the story.

E.g. Maybe the money split wasn't right.

Also what is with the 'short fight' requirement? Was Johnson putting his title on the line for a six round fight?

Well I don't want to be misunderstood. In no way am I blaming Langford for anything that happened. I don't believe that Langford was ducking Johnson, but I wanted to know the other poster's opinion since he kept pushing the narrative that Johnson ducked. In the situation above, it seems Langford was responsible for that particular instance of the fight not coming off. So was wondering what he had to say about that since he and another poster were, without doing any research at all apparently, assuming this instance was the fault of Johnson. They just saw the challenge and that the fight didn't come off, and they immediately moved to blame Johnson, which we can see now was wrong.

As for the short fight, I'm honestly not sure. I don't know if he would put the title up for a 6 round fight. It was only clear to me that he made the challenge and Langford, or at least his manager, jumped at the chance. The promoter seemed to have both sides in agreement, and then Langford split. I'm guessing there was more money to be had overseas for him and he chose to go with that instead. If that is the case, I wonder how Johnson detractors feel about that since they want to hold Johnson's feet to the fire for not putting up the title for a "paltry" $4000 win or $2000 loss over 20 rounds.


The only good that has come out of my conversations with the ducking Dr. is that I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's book on Sam Langford. I'm right around 1909 at the moment. I'm hoping we get some insight about why Langford chose to pass this up when I get to that timeframe.

[JAB5239]

Well I don't want to be misunderstood. In no way am I blaming Langford for anything that happened. I don't believe that Langford was ducking Johnson, but I wanted to know the other poster's opinion since he kept pushing the narrative that Johnson ducked. In the situation above, it seems Langford was responsible for that particular instance of the fight not coming off. So was wondering what he had to say about that since he and another poster were, without doing any research at all apparently, assuming this instance was the fault of Johnson. They just saw the challenge and that the fight didn't come off, and they immediately moved to blame Johnson, which we can see now was wrong.

As for the short fight, I'm honestly not sure. I don't know if he would put the title up for a 6 round fight. It was only clear to me that he made the challenge and Langford, or at least his manager, jumped at the chance. The promoter seemed to have both sides in agreement, and then Langford split. I'm guessing there was more money to be had overseas for him and he chose to go with that instead. If that is the case, I wonder how Johnson detractors feel about that since they want to hold Johnson's feet to the fire for not putting up the title for a "paltry" $4000 win or $2000 loss over 20 rounds.


The only good that has come out of my conversations with the ducking Dr. is that I'm currently reading Clay Moyle's book on Sam Langford. I'm right around 1909 at the moment. I'm hoping we get some insight about why Langford chose to pass this up when I get to that timeframe.

That is an excellent book! I read it years ago but may see if I can dig it out and read it again.

[travestyny]

That is an excellent book! I read it years ago but may see if I can dig it out and read it again.

Yea. I'm really enjoying it!!! I love that it gives a glimpse of what his personality was like, as well as very good "play by play" of the fights! Really cool!

[Anthony342]

Yea. I'm really enjoying it!!! I love that it gives a glimpse of what his personality was like, as well as very good "play by play" of the fights! Really cool!

So was it more the fault of the promoters for why a Johnson/Langford rematch didn't happen then?

[travestyny]

So was it more the fault of the promoters for why a Johnson/Langford rematch didn't happen then?

Honestly, it just seems like they couldn't get the money or the timing right.

When he won the championship, they were trying to get him to fight Langford for $4000 win and $2000 lose, which is ridiculous. Then he offered Langford the short bout, but Langford left the country instead of going through with the deal, likely because he could make more money abroad (I don't blame him). Then a promoter finally showed up with Johnson's price, Johnson agreed, and everything was set, but Johnson got bagged on the Mann act and the promoter pulled the deal because no one wanted anything to do with Johnson. After that I haven't seen any offers for his price against black fighters, and Johnson was busy trying to make as much money as he could wherever he was allowed to fight, and of course the main draw was a fight against white hopefuls. Between that and vaudeville for some dough he could put away without being punched in the head. He made pretty smart decisions, especially being that it was clear he really wanted to retire at least since around 1912 or even earlier.

Obviously, and especially for someone in his precarious situation where he couldn't even make a living in some countries including his own, he's not going to sit around turning down lucrative engagements just waiting for someone to decide they want to give just as much money to fight Langford. When he was offered the price for Langford that he stated from the beginning was fair, he took it. The fight still didn't happen because of a BS Mann Act arrest.

It's really sad that even in death the man gets so much bs hurled at him. I mean while he was alive they robbed him of tons of money and tried their best to make sure he couldn't live the life he wanted to live. It's not like he was asking for the world. He demanded equal pay as white champions and a right to fvvck who he wanted. That shouldn't have been a struggle. You would think his life was a living hell, but every time we see Jack he had a big smile on his face. There is something admirable about that.

[Anthony342]

Honestly, it just seems like they couldn't get the money or the timing right.

When he won the championship, they were trying to get him to fight Langford for $4000 win and $2000 lose, which is ridiculous. Then he offered Langford the short bout, but Langford left the country instead of going through with the deal, likely because he could make more money abroad (I don't blame him). Then a promoter finally showed up with Johnson's price, Johnson agreed, and everything was set, but Johnson got bagged on the Mann act and the promoter pulled the deal because no one wanted anything to do with Johnson. After that I haven't seen any offers for his price against black fighters, and Johnson was busy trying to make as much money as he could wherever he was allowed to fight, and of course the main draw was a fight against white hopefuls. Between that and vaudeville for some dough he could put away without being punched in the head. He made pretty smart decisions, especially being that it was clear he really wanted to retire at least since around 1912 or even earlier.

Obviously, and especially for someone in his precarious situation where he couldn't even make a living in some countries including his own, he's not going to sit around turning down lucrative engagements just waiting for someone to decide they want to give just as much money to fight Langford. When he was offered the price for Langford that he stated from the beginning was fair, he took it. The fight still didn't happen because of a BS Mann Act arrest.

It's really sad that even in death the man gets so much bs hurled at him. I mean while he was alive they robbed him of tons of money and tried their best to make sure he couldn't live the life he wanted to live. It's not like he was asking for the world. He demanded equal pay as white champions and a right to fvvck who he wanted. That shouldn't have been a struggle. You would think his life was a living hell, but every time we see Jack he had a big smile on his face. There is something admirable about that.

Speaking of admirable, I read that Johnson also patented an invention for some kind of new hammer, while still in prison. Damn dude.

Sounds like this fight was cursed. Like the more recent Khabib vs. Ferguson fight, which also fell through on 3 separate occasions. Now the champ is retired and Tony is past prime and shopworn, so the window of opportunity has pretty much passed on that one as well.

[GhostofDempsey]

You have made a strong argument that Johnson wasn't ducking Langford.

But you have unintentionally greatly discredited Langford's legacy. --- Does Sam get to have a voice in this?

The sources are Johnson and a disgruntled promoter who saw a big fight slip through his hands (because of Sam). --- As it reads now it doesn't look good for Langford, but we need to reserve some judgment until we can hear (if ever) his side of the story.

E.g. Maybe the money split wasn't right.

Also what is with the 'short fight' requirement? Was Johnson putting his title on the line for a six round fight?

There he goes with his same old recycled anonymous sources from a hundred years ago. It’s an exercise in futility. You might as well debate this topic with a mental patient at Bellevue, same difference.