I never understood the hype around Listons jab

[QueensburyRules]

You accuse of Ginsberg and speak in koans...what a hypocrite. Your as a ss to me until you take the time to read the posts, and respond intelligently. You have shown you can do so, but its been a while...

In this case, you are out of context and the post should tell you that. I am referring to setting up an opponent and the ability to pursue while moving, and throwing combos while grounded enough to transfer power.

this might clarify: Chris Byrd is a talented fighter, he moves very nicely in the ring, but, cannot transfer power, his ability to root his weight momentarily (really more like in a split second) is lacking. It is a quality the great Chinese boxers had by the way. They did not have the physical strength to use arm punches, etc.

So I just took two minutes of my life to give you a thoughtful, legible response. Can you do the same in responding?

- -I no speakee Chinee...

[DeeMoney]

It's technically good but quite slow and not as impactful as Foremans, and not as snappy as Holmes, and not as fast as Ali's. I would also put Lennox Lewis's jab above liston when he commited to it (had a tendency to paw it to conserve energy).

Had liston not been blessed with that freakish reach and fist size, I don't think it would be a particulary hard or effective shot, which I don't think is true for the other ones mentioned.

Anybody agree?

No need to over think it, the bolded portion is enough for it to be great. Now while I think you are being a bit overly critical lets just assume you are right in all things you say; he still had an 84 inch reach and 15 inch hands!

I know I write this a lot, but, for as much as many want boxing just to be about skill, heart, and out-thinking your opponent it is a sport. As a sport a major part of success in it is athletic ability; strength, speed, endurance, body control, etc. Well one part of athletic ability is Body Type.

And while nobody roots for Goliath (just ask poor Wilt Chamberlain) sometimes simply being the bigger guy is a big part of what makes someone great. There are many athletes who became great thanks in part to their size; heck Tyson Fury is dope but would he have been able to jab-n-grab Klitschko or avoid Wilder's right for so long if he had Holyfield's build.

For Liston, he still has one of the longest reaches of any champion ever, and I am pretty sure the biggest fist. The fact that he was able to use it with even just a fair amount of skill (running with your assumption) is all it needed to be great

[billeau2]

This might be old news for you but are you familiar with the Dempsey Roll?

This seems a similar action to what you were describing with Liston.

From: The Modern Marital Artist


"The Dempsey Roll was not one move, but a combination of punches built of Dempsey’s unorthodox techniques, . . . the first pieces of it are what Dempsey names in his book as the drop step and trigger step. The drop step is how Dempsey began each punch to build momentum. He would lean all his weight onto his front leg, and then quickly lift it up. This “triggered” his back leg to save him from falling, quickly pushing him forward. This technique allowed Dempsey to put all of his weight into each punch, as he was essentially falling forward into his opponent and catching himself…with his fist…on their face."

This is part of Dempsey's tome on punching. Still as relevant today as when it was written; Same problems different era, used to see it is martial arts dojos all the time. Guys with great form and no power... A little story.

My Karate Sensei was a sadist... His teacher had been as well. Nothing came easy with Sensei Willie Ben! I mean most clubs went to tournaments together and made sure they were there for each other. To sensei that was a false sense of security.

Thus in true Sensei fashion, he takes me and my friend, both Green Belts at the time, having gone through the ringer lol and tells us for our continued strive for Black Belt we would be going to this tournament... did I forget to mention that this would be our first tournament and really... our first exposure to other clubs? Sometimes you have a diamond and it does not look like the tin others have and its scary... how did you get so swindled? or so you think... Keep that thought in mind because we were trained as real fighters...we didn't know that, and Sensei was not keen to tell us, rather he would have us make some discovery on our own, always, always, always... the hard way.

We get there and we see this green belt. Willie P? he was prettier than a young racquel welch in lingeria and heels! Beautiful kicks! my friend and I are livid... what the heck? But we sign in... Better to get beat up here than tell sensei we backed down and take that a ss whipping... And Sensei has people watching at all the tourneys... Lying? possible death sentence. Our training really was traumatic at times... I mean that with no irony, I could never ever tell you, or anyone how I made it through to become one of the strongest people in the club, I simply do not know.

So here we go... AND the Matches are starting!!!! ding ding ding!!! here comes the guy we saw against another guy!!!! They look at each other with Tex Cobb eyes! glinting... jaw clenched... The ref says Hijimi (Fight!!!) and then.... then... they start bouncing around and throwing these slapping techniques, occasionly the ref gives a point here and there. WHAT the F uck? It was like... total confusion to me.

I don't want to post too long and the second story about my match is not relevant lol... Point is, Power is key. Looking back on that and guys who had flowery technique you see what Dempsey was reacting to. Regarding Liston: Dempsey used more upper body movements... Personally I would say he did more shoulder rolling than the signature "head bob" people talk about. Making guys miss at a distance where a good small man can operate. Liston was more a distance guy who could fight at any range when necessary. Liston set up his punches, if one has ever fought and watched Sonny, one would know how easy it is to throw a shot... But putting together a sequence in real time with opponent moving? different story. To do so Sonny kept his guy at the tip of his spear (his jab), BUT like Dempsey both would lean weight into that "lead" we call a jab! Hope that helps.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Sounds positively Ginsbergian.

Where Kerouac run off to?

[billeau2]

- -Sounds positively Ginsbergian.

Where Kerouac run off to?

Trying to post under the radar, thinking I would not smell the stench of gin and diapers and know you had posted? Do you do that with all those members you post to that have left the site? just in case they come back?

[QueensburyRules]

Trying to post under the radar, thinking I would not smell the stench of gin and diapers and know you had posted? Do you do that with all those members you post to that have left the site? just in case they come back?

- -The forum was comatose when I returned to it.

I brought back over a half dozen ancient posters and give U a dart board.

[billeau2]

- -The forum was comatose when I returned to it.

I brought back over a half dozen ancient posters and give U a dart board.

How many have responded?

[QueensburyRules]

How many have responded?

- -What part of a half dozen don't U understand?

What? U math illiterate?

Or just toopid?

[billeau2]

- -What part of a half dozen don't U understand?

What? U math illiterate?

Or just toopid?

Yup thats what I thought... Noneya! That russian for 0 lol.

[QueensburyRules]

yup thats what i thought... Noneya! That russian for 0 lol.

- -nyet!!!