I never understood the hype around Listons jab

[Rusty Tromboni]

It's technically good but quite slow and not as impactful as Foremans, and not as snappy as Holmes, and not as fast as Ali's. I would also put Lennox Lewis's jab above liston when he commited to it (had a tendency to paw it to conserve energy).

Had liston not been blessed with that freakish reach and fist size, I don't think it would be a particulary hard or effective shot, which I don't think is true for the other ones mentioned.

Anybody agree?

it's a phenomenal weapon, But as far as serving the purposes normally satisfied by the jab it was, it was useless.

Was Liston's jab really better than Harada's? Lomachenko's?

I think it was a great punch. But only for one thing.

[Rusty Tromboni]

No. We are talking giving up the world’s heavyweight championship on your stool. Quitting because his shoulder hurt. The same shoulder used to throw many multiple punches seconds prior. Heavyweight champions are held to a tougher standard historically. Always have been.

Now this is a great post! Post more like this and people will appreciate your input.

- -I'd agree Wlad had the best left hand in boxing that he often dominated using it alone while seamlessly flitting between all the hybrid itinerations between left jab and Hook.

Any other lefts are as a pedestrian compared to the 2020 midengine Corvette.

Read it and weep for thee heroes.

Well said.

[Pugilist89]

Who else moved like Ali?

Lots of HWs. Young, Briggs, Tillis, Holmes, etc.

[Pugilist89]

Liston was a highly predictable heavyweight. None to quick and of course his heart and will to win is highly questionable. You can’t rate Liston, who sat on his stool giving up the greatest prize in all of sport, alongside those who went through hell to keep that title.

I agree but he did come back FROM Cleveland Williams barrage of punches so it might be that he was content and Ali was too much for him

[Pugilist89]

Ali wanted to quit after he got that stuff in his eyes and asked to cut his gloves so he wasn't much better...

[billeau2]

It's technically good but quite slow and not as impactful as Foremans, and not as snappy as Holmes, and not as fast as Ali's. I would also put Lennox Lewis's jab above liston when he commited to it (had a tendency to paw it to conserve energy).

Had liston not been blessed with that freakish reach and fist size, I don't think it would be a particulary hard or effective shot, which I don't think is true for the other ones mentioned.

Anybody agree?

I am going to pounce a little lighter than Left Hook. You seem to actually understand Liston's jab but then form an opinion based on the fallicy that all "good/great" jabs should be the same. So, lets go to the second paragraph of your post:

"Had liston not been blessed with that freakish reach and fist size, I don't think it would be a particulary hard or effective shot." Well... Liston WAS blessed with freakish reach and fist size... And, he adapted the technique to his body size. Do we critisize Marciano because he was not as efficient a puncher as Louis? Or do we see the genius of how Marciano was taught to use his physical characteristics to become unique? as taught by goldman?

Liston used his jab as a pole axe... He was incredibly effective with it because of his reach and hand size. Foreman was mentored by Liston and developed a similar capacity with his jab, though I think Liston's was better. I don't know what you base your comparison with Foreman on... But we can agree to disagree about Foreman's vs Liston's jab.

[QueensburyRules]

That must mean we can't rate Duran who flat out quit in the middle of a round. Plenty of fighters have retired on their stool. If we go by that there are going to be lot of fighters left out of ratings.

- -He didn't Quit, he dismissed Ray as a clown that didn't want to fight a Duran who needed to evacuate them 2 steak dinners he inhaled after the weighin hours earlier.

Ducked the 3rd fight for years and then ran for his misbegotten life for that duration.

Helps to have watched the fights!

[louis54]

Liston was an excellent fighter but he tends to get ovveratted for some reason

[BKM-]

I am going to pounce a little lighter than Left Hook. You seem to actually understand Liston's jab but then form an opinion based on the fallicy that all "good/great" jabs should be the same. So, lets go to the second paragraph of your post:

"Had liston not been blessed with that freakish reach and fist size, I don't think it would be a particulary hard or effective shot." Well... Liston WAS blessed with freakish reach and fist size... And, he adapted the technique to his body size. Do we critisize Marciano because he was not as efficient a puncher as Louis? Or do we see the genius of how Marciano was taught to use his physical characteristics to become unique? as taught by goldman?

Liston used his jab as a pole axe... He was incredibly effective with it because of his reach and hand size. Foreman was mentored by Liston and developed a similar capacity with his jab, though I think Liston's was better. I don't know what you base your comparison with Foreman on... But we can agree to disagree about Foreman's vs Liston's jab.

His point starts out dumb from the start. "IF Liston didn't have that reach and giant fist". Completely pointless. IF Ali didn't have the fast twitch muscles he wouldn't have been so fast. IF Foreman didn't have such natural raw power he wouldn't have KO'd so many. We can go all day with that.

[BKM-]

Liston was an excellent fighter but he tends to get ovveratted for some reason

Not true, most people rate him where he should be placed, in the lower spot of the top 10 ATG HW's. I have him @ #10. He bashed Patterson's skull in twice, smashed young Cleveland Williams twice while overcoming adversity, Machen, Folley.

Hmm now that I really think about it he did have a thin resume and only defended his title once, bashing Patterson's skull in. But becoming champ and taking the title from an arguable ATG is pretty good, and his reign was ended by the GOAT HW.