Mike Weaver vs Cleveland Williams

[Rusty Tromboni]

You calling someone ignorant? You don't know jack about Liston, no suprise... Pookie...you come up with these comments and they are from like outer space. Are you a space man? From the planet idiot?

I don't know Jack about Liston? Why because I don't participate in pajama parties with other "adults", train yoga with a Sikh, reference rock climbers?

So having Boxed myself, having watched most of Liston's fights, his opponents' fights, and having studied his career, my opinion is deemed uninformed?

That's odd even by your standards, Staight-jacket Guy.

What do you suggest I do to formulate a better understanding of Liston? Take up watercolor painting? Eat bagels with schmear every morning? Buy some Billy Blanks VHSs and train TaeBo? Maybe a Broadway show is in order?

Please, I hate to interupt your sh.it-smearing sessions, but tell me what I need to do to unlock the mystery of Sonny Liston.

[Rusty Tromboni]

As usual, so you say, not how things are... Pookie darling get out more from that Jersey porch and like you tole me, see the world. Things that happen in your head are different than the real world... Now Pookie? being a Buddhist and a teacher and all, I like skillful means to show us the ways we need to learn, but your starting to scare me. Your about on the level of that other churl Queensbee. Thats precipitious a drop... Check your IQ it may be dropping.

Hahahaha! Now you're taking your daddy-issues to a whole new level. I know I'm a great guy, but I really don't get your obsession. Why are you so desperate for my approval?

I divulged my past experience as a teacher, and now you 're a teacher, too!?!?!? Soooo weird. Creepy actually. Leading Pajama Parties isn't teaching... no matter how much you pay your own Pajama Party master, and he tells you it is.


When I wished upon the shooting star to be 20 years younger I didn't mean to be chased around by a crazy bi.tch with daddy issues, again. And people think "The Monkey's Paw" is fiction.

[billeau2]

I don't know Jack about Liston? Why because I don't participate in pajama parties with other "adults", train yoga with a Sikh, reference rock climbers?

So having Boxed myself, having watched most of Liston's fights, his opponents' fights, and having studied his career, my opinion is deemed uninformed?

That's odd even by your standards, Staight-jacket Guy.

What do you suggest I do to formulate a better understanding of Liston? Take up watercolor painting? Eat bagels with schmear every morning? Buy some Billy Blanks VHSs and train TaeBo? Maybe a Broadway show is in order?

Please, I hate to interupt your sh.it-smearing sessions, but tell me what I need to do to unlock the mystery of Sonny Liston.

Wow you have my achievments listed better than Linked! someone has been listening Im flattered and will be glad to help you:

Its not about "watching" a fight Rusty. The best analogy is a microscope and small single celled animals (yes they are animals technically). I can describe them to you, but you have to know what to look for and train the eyes to see these organisms.

Its the same with tape, it is what to watch for. Liston's jab, his practiced two step, his ability to guage a hurt opponent and control the distance...His power, his punch selection and ability to use many tools, his punching technique. Liston happens to be one of the most technically accomplished heavyweights regarding the use of combinations. he also has one of the best jabs, moved very very well for a big man, etc.

You said you have boxed right? then you know how difficult it is to throw combos while stepping into an opponent moving away. Especially for a big man. Liston was a master at this! These are some of the things I am talking about.

To compare Liston to Vlad for example... Vlad cannot move in the ring, cringes when punched at, has one range to fight at. Stewart just taught him to grab on... Vitalie i a much better fighter BTW. Its in the tape.

[billeau2]

Hahahaha! Now you're taking your daddy-issues to a whole new level. I know I'm a great guy, but I really don't get your obsession. Why are you so desperate for my approval?

I divulged my past experience as a teacher, and now you 're a teacher, too!?!?!? Soooo weird. Creepy actually. Leading Pajama Parties isn't teaching... no matter how much you pay your own Pajama Party master, and he tells you it is.


When I wished upon the shooting star to be 20 years younger I didn't mean to be chased around by a crazy bi.tch with daddy issues, again. And people think "The Monkey's Paw" is fiction.

Lol. You can find posts referencing my experience as a teacher way before you showed up here! Not quite going back to the epic battles between Houdini and Queeny, but before you were here. And...If you doubt credentials I will gladly post all of them to Batts, you do the same... I have taught martial arts, public High school and community college, and was a TA in graduate school.

I do respond to your posts: I do so because idiots get a pass to say anything here and it is annoying. I come from a generation where you just ignore it, but the internet does not work that way. Idiots like you, when you say things with no real proof, should be challenged. Your bullying tactics don't work and that really gets to you...

So don't flatter yourself Pookie... my only interest in YOU is to have a good dialogue when something decent is posted, as with any poster, and to challenge the Bull crap that you spew, particularly if one dares challenge your crazy assertion. Got it Pookie?

[joseph5620]

48 of 58 wins were by KO.... it don't matter what he's "known" for, it matters what he did. Obviously, his defensive Boxing (and habit of impersonating jaba the hutt) attracted more attention than the outcome of his fights. But if you actually WATCHED the fight with Coetzee, you'd see he was throwing bombs. Bombs that would've put away MArshall, Machen and Martin.

Coetzee didn't lose because he was weak, he lost because he was predictable and crude. But his offense was more than Williams or Liston could handle.


Really, it's ****** we're even having this conversation. Liston quit on his stool. Marshal broke his jaw. Martin stopped him. Ali's phantom punch was sufficient for him to throw a fight where he'd suffer no injury. His best win was against a kid 20 pounds lighter.

You sound re.tarded trying to make a case for these guys against a killer like Coetzee.

Those "bombs" from Page only knocked out lower class fighters or fighters that couldn't take a punch like Coetzee. Tubbs, Snipes, Witherspoon, Berbick, Douglas, Tubbs, Bey, and numerous other top 10 fighters had no problems going the distance with him.



Page, Weaver, and Bruno knocked your boy Coetzee silly. He didn't do well with punchers. John Tate easily beat Coetzee and had him tentative. In fact, Coetzee couldn't even go the distance with Iran Barkley. A former middleweight , So you're the dumb one to think he somehow was going to survive and beat Liston or Williams.

[billeau2]

Those "bombs" from Page only knocked out lower class fighters or fighters that couldn't take a punch like Coetzee. Tubbs, Snipes, Witherspoon, Berbick, Douglas, Tubbs, Bey, and numerous other top 10 fighters had no problems going the distance with him.



Page, Weaver, and Bruno knocked your boy Coetzee silly. He didn't do well with punchers. John Tate easily beat Coetzee and had him tentative. In fact, Coetzee couldn't even go the distance with Iran Barkley. A former middleweight , So you're the dumb one to think he somehow was going to survive and beat Liston or Williams.

Having to explain to a ****** why Coetzee is not in the class of liston, Williams etc... Sometimes this section drives me nuts lol... But if nobody calls these idiots out its even worse.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Those "bombs" from Page only knocked out lower class fighters or fighters that couldn't take a punch like Coetzee. Tubbs, Snipes, Witherspoon, Berbick, Douglas, Tubbs, Bey, and numerous other top 10 fighters had no problems going the distance with him.



Page, Weaver, and Bruno knocked your boy Coetzee silly. He didn't do well with punchers. John Tate easily beat Coetzee and had him tentative. In fact, Coetzee couldn't even go the distance with Iran Barkley. A former middleweight , So you're the dumb one to think he somehow was going to survive and beat Liston or Williams.

Maybe better if you study up on Boxing for a while before posting again. Otherwise, people might think you're re.tarded.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Wow you have my achievments listed better than Linked! someone has been listening Im flattered and will be glad to help you:

Its not about "watching" a fight Rusty. The best analogy is a microscope and small single celled animals (yes they are animals technically). I can describe them to you, but you have to know what to look for and train the eyes to see these organisms.

Its the same with tape, it is what to watch for. Liston's jab, his practiced two step, his ability to guage a hurt opponent and control the distance...His power, his punch selection and ability to use many tools, his punching technique. Liston happens to be one of the most technically accomplished heavyweights regarding the use of combinations. he also has one of the best jabs, moved very very well for a big man, etc.

You said you have boxed right? then you know how difficult it is to throw combos while stepping into an opponent moving away. Especially for a big man. Liston was a master at this! These are some of the things I am talking about.

To compare Liston to Vlad for example... Vlad cannot move in the ring, cringes when punched at, has one range to fight at. Stewart just taught him to grab on... Vitalie i a much better fighter BTW. Its in the tape.

It's cute to watch you squirm. Remember, you did this to yourself. You're the one who wanted attention... so I am giving you attention. It's just not the kind you wanted.


Look, I get it. We ALL know your M.O.; you buddy up to people who know something about Boxing to parrot their statements, and you supplement that with what you've read in articles. No doubt, having been one of your tutors myself, you have a keen sense for authority on the subject. The fault line lies between you knowing what others have said and understanding it. If you weren't so resistant to correction, this wouldn't even be a problem. But you are. Worse, you don't actually do any of your own research: you've never Boxed, you don't watch fights, you don't even bother to refer to records. It's this sloth and vanity that's your true undoing.


But since you want attention, i'll ask you... just like you looked to me for information, i'm gonna come to you... please breakdown what you told me about Liston. If you really understand Liston, let's hear it! I know you're not gonna run like when I asked about the time Garcia beat Conn or Basilio beat Fullmer. I know you'll finally put on your pajama pants and give me a man's answer.





I love when whores want my ****, but then grimace when they gotta swallow what comes out of it.

[billeau2]

It's cute to watch you squirm. Remember, you did this to yourself. You're the one who wanted attention... so I am giving you attention. It's just not the kind you wanted.


Look, I get it. We ALL know your M.O.; you buddy up to people who know something about Boxing to parrot their statements, and you supplement that with what you've read in articles. No doubt, having been one of your tutors myself, you have a keen sense for authority on the subject. The fault line lies between you knowing what others have said and understanding it. If you weren't so resistant to correction, this wouldn't even be a problem. But you are. Worse, you don't actually do any of your own research: you've never Boxed, you don't watch fights, you don't even bother to refer to records. It's this sloth and vanity that's your true undoing.


But since you want attention, i'll ask you... just like you looked to me for information, i'm gonna come to you... please breakdown what you told me about Liston. If you really understand Liston, let's hear it! I know you're not gonna run like when I asked about the time Garcia beat Conn or Basilio beat Fullmer. I know you'll finally put on your pajama pants and give me a man's answer.





I love when whores want my ****, but then grimace when they gotta swallow what comes out of it.

You don't get it do you? All of our posts are on these threads... so anyone can see how absolute full of s hit you are pookie. You can talk crap about me all you want. My posts reflect the truth and unfortunately for you... The same applies. This site is a record of your ignorance, and you can claim anything you want, but its all here!

Briefly: I don't let you, or other trolls, get away with posting crap here. You take offense because your method is to browbeat, and bully, cast aspersions, to make ridiculous assertions. And I do not mean a difference of opinion, I mean ridiculous assertions that insult the general level of insight in this section. I get it... I did the same thing to Elroy lol. He was as ridiculous as you. You want to be left alone to name call, provoke, and claim authority in a subject where you are truly dim...

Its obvious you just want to deficate your uninformed crap and be left alone to do so... Too bad!

As far as Liston, I know you stalk me and saw the most recent posts I wrote about Liston... But in the name of being positive I will make the effort to repeat myself troll. I don't claim to be smart, or an expert... I just contribute here... But I know a lot more than you do about the subject. And By the way, people will look and see who made those comments about Conn and Cerrifino, and it was you!!! But you know that my desperate troll.

Ok here is My take on Sonny Liston from watching tape, recreating some of his strategy, etc...

Liston was incredibly strong. Not all strength has to do with weight, Liston was built in a manner where his strength was all useful... Giant wrists, hands, shoulders, reach, strong legs... Useful strength is distinguished from extra weight, etc.

Liston, despite being illiterate, was very intelligent reflected in his methodical approach to fighting in the ring. Liston's footwork, his use of his jab as a pole ax, while being able to throw a normal jab was exceptional. His footwork was a step and a half, and he taught himself to ground, throw his shots, while continuing to move, pursue opponent.

Liston had a great chin, and power, and a complicated life... But watching his work anyone can see that at his best, he was at least top ten...

There you go stalker now go play.

[Rusty Tromboni]

You don't get it do you? All of our posts are on these threads... so anyone can see how absolute full of s hit you are pookie. You can talk crap about me all you want. My posts reflect the truth and unfortunately for you... The same applies. This site is a record of your ignorance, and you can claim anything you want, but its all here!

Briefly: I don't let you, or other trolls, get away with posting crap here. You take offense because your method is to browbeat, and bully, cast aspersions, to make ridiculous assertions. And I do not mean a difference of opinion, I mean ridiculous assertions that insult the general level of insight in this section. I get it... I did the same thing to Elroy lol. He was as ridiculous as you. You want to be left alone to name call, provoke, and claim authority in a subject where you are truly dim...

Its obvious you just want to deficate your uninformed crap and be left alone to do so... Too bad!

As far as Liston, I know you stalk me and saw the most recent posts I wrote about Liston... But in the name of being positive I will make the effort to repeat myself troll. I don't claim to be smart, or an expert... I just contribute here... But I know a lot more than you do about the subject. And By the way, people will look and see who made those comments about Conn and Cerrifino, and it was you!!! But you know that my desperate troll.

Ok here is My take on Sonny Liston from watching tape, recreating some of his strategy, etc...

Liston was incredibly strong. Not all strength has to do with weight, Liston was built in a manner where his strength was all useful... Giant wrists, hands, shoulders, reach, strong legs... Useful strength is distinguished from extra weight, etc.

Liston, despite being illiterate, was very intelligent reflected in his methodical approach to fighting in the ring. Liston's footwork, his use of his jab as a pole ax, while being able to throw a normal jab was exceptional. His footwork was a step and a half, and he taught himself to ground, throw his shots, while continuing to move, pursue opponent.

Liston had a great chin, and power, and a complicated life... But watching his work anyone can see that at his best, he was at least top ten...

There you go stalker now go play.

Nice retreat.


Liston was very good at fighting a head to head battle against out-matched opponents. But once he met resistance his confidence dropped off precipitously. He was ineffective at cutting off the ring; he was predictable; and even if his jaw was solid, his heart was lacking.

Coetzee was less skilled, but he was even more physically imposing. His shortcoming wasn't confidence, it was poor conditioning and lack of refinement.

Michael Spinks was a bigger Heavyweight than Floyd Patterson ever was, and you see how he was undersized compared to 80s Heavyweights.