Better resume: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jack Dempsey?

[The Old LefHook]

I respect you... and I am going to prove it to you by shoving it down your throat until you give up.

Who wouldn't love the respect of having something shoved down their throat?

[Marchegiano]

I get your point. To be honest I just did not want you to think I was putting words in your mouth regarding the idea that "incomprable" does not equate to "better" or "worse." But you basically claim that you were not making this claim, so that puts us on the same page.

Regarding some of your other comments I think it is complicated. You say "such a comparison should not be taken seriously" not exactly how I would describe it but I am in agreement.

The problem for me comes in when people generalize... Yes the best computer in 1988 could be spectacular and not compare, and certainly in some sports there is a similar issue at work. Boxing is different IMO because it is a hybrid of combat and sport. I often point out that the original fighting style changed dramatically. Less about combat more about changes specific to the ring, equipment, etc. Boxing changed quite a bit, but I resist trying to qualify the changes beyond specific empirical, physical actions that can be viewed and analyzed.

Historically the world was so different...it meant something different to even consider what was global. Some countries did have a global system. Brazil was way ahead of its time... It had wrestling traditions of all stripes, and the world's best competing in "Catch Can" "Lycenshire", "Roman/Greco" "Ju Jutsu" and anything goes (Vale Tudo), but Brazil was the exception and has to be viewed on her own merits.

O don't see a disagreement. Again, wanted to make sure I was not speaking for your intended meaning when I pointed out what I did. You will notice that I gave no indication that I believed any comments to the contrary. I compare physical actions, skills, things that can be seen.

I hate to be a prick to you, but, there is no middle ground.

If I claimed Floyd lived at a time with more people and y'all took issue with that I'd defend it too. It is the truth.

That said, I didn't feel like you were part of that so much as questioning why I'd take part in that argument myself or even present one to be had. I was taking a preaching to the choir kind of stance there.


If not being able to accept the past was smaller doesn't show an extreme bias in this section I dunno what does. I don't feel like I said anything provocative at all. I said something hardly ever said but 100% true. No one here should take issue with or feel the need to explain away Dempsey's from a smaller era.

I didn't say the skills grew or technique has improved or anything else that might maybe be debatable.

I said Jack Dempsey only fought White America because he did.

There is no ****ing debate. There is no ****ing grey. He did not fight blacks at all and hardly ever fought anyone non-Americans.

Show me a pro Uzbek prior to the 1990s. Go for it.

Firpo represents all of SA according to Dini, except, who from Paraguay was boxing in the 1920s?

It's not debatable and since they decided to make it a debate I'm just going to dig my heels in and let as many want to try to explain away a state of being as if it was something more than it could possibly be.

Skills and resume are for a different argument, one everyone here is prepared for. None of the Dempsey-ites were prepared to have his worldliness attacked and so here we are with knowledgeable and respectable fans trying to pretend like George represents all of France let alone Europe.

Find me a pro boxer from French Guiana in the 1920s. Oh. Well how about French Polynesia? Not really France? Okay, but, presently there are pros from those places....just like Ukraine. Funny how a man who fought in an era when all the French lands didn't fight and all of Europe did not fight, funny how that guy can be the representative of all of Europe and France in the 1920s.


Standards? Brazil? Meh, it just is. I'm not saying Dempsey's world was ****ter, but, it was smaller, it is smaller, and there is no comparison between 2020 boxing and 1920 boxing in infrastructure, boxing grew.

[Marchegiano]

No. The US was the center of the boxing world in decades past. Certainly the Dempsey era where international bouts were much more difficult to arrange.

As champion Dempsey fought the leading European and SA challengers. You made no mention of these bouts. Why?

Ali fought the best from Canada, SA and Europe. Yet you did not mention these bouts. Why?

To somehow infer that the lumbering oaf is somehow superior to prior champions because he fights many different nationalities is BS. Nationality has nothing to do with the quality of opponent.

Only 22 of Schmeling 71 bouts were vs German opponents. Max fought a who’s who of fighters from all over Europe. Why? He was European!

Because it's ****ing an absurd notion. You're being ******. Not kinda, not a little, really, really ****ing ******.

I say boxing got bigger and your defense to this is to point out we still had bests from tiny pools.

Do I have to force you to admit Firpo and Gardinier came from tiny pools we called SA and Europe but did not include all of SA or all of Europe?

Show my the 1920s ranking for Ukraine, that's some ****ing Europe you have....prick

Now, you want to admit Europe today represents more than the boxing world's europe of 1920 or do I have to point out more ENTIRE EUROPEAN NATIONS THAT DID NOT BOX BEING REPRESENTED BY A FRENCHMEN TO NEGATE THE FACT THAT THEY BOX TODAY?

I mean really. George = Europe, okay, SMALLER EUROPE YA DUMB ****

[HOUDINI563]

You talk in circles.

You initially made comments that inferred older champions were not true champions because they did not fight across all nations.

You fail to point out fights such as these were not easy to put together in decades past. To make a fight occur a demand for that fight had to be in place.

Dempsey koed the Heavyweight champion of Europe and the best SA had to offer. Again at a time before mass electronic media where an opponent could be sold to an audience well in advance.

You stated Schmeling mostly fought German opponents. Untrue. Only 22 out of 71 fights were vs German opponents. His record looks like a who’s who of nationalities. European, American and SA.

The fact remains that boxing talent is not indicated by nationality.

[billeau2]

I hate to be a prick to you, but, there is no middle ground.

If I claimed Floyd lived at a time with more people and y'all took issue with that I'd defend it too. It is the truth.

That said, I didn't feel like you were part of that so much as questioning why I'd take part in that argument myself or even present one to be had. I was taking a preaching to the choir kind of stance there.


If not being able to accept the past was smaller doesn't show an extreme bias in this section I dunno what does. I don't feel like I said anything provocative at all. I said something hardly ever said but 100% true. No one here should take issue with or feel the need to explain away Dempsey's from a smaller era.

I didn't say the skills grew or technique has improved or anything else that might maybe be debatable.

I said Jack Dempsey only fought White America because he did.

There is no ****ing debate. There is no ****ing grey. He did not fight blacks at all and hardly ever fought anyone non-Americans.

Show me a pro Uzbek prior to the 1990s. Go for it.

Firpo represents all of SA according to Dini, except, who from Paraguay was boxing in the 1920s?

It's not debatable and since they decided to make it a debate I'm just going to dig my heels in and let as many want to try to explain away a state of being as if it was something more than it could possibly be.

Skills and resume are for a different argument, one everyone here is prepared for. None of the Dempsey-ites were prepared to have his worldliness attacked and so here we are with knowledgeable and respectable fans trying to pretend like George represents all of France let alone Europe.

Find me a pro boxer from French Guiana in the 1920s. Oh. Well how about French Polynesia? Not really France? Okay, but, presently there are pros from those places....just like Ukraine. Funny how a man who fought in an era when all the French lands didn't fight and all of Europe did not fight, funny how that guy can be the representative of all of Europe and France in the 1920s.


Standards? Brazil? Meh, it just is. I'm not saying Dempsey's world was ****ter, but, it was smaller, it is smaller, and there is no comparison between 2020 boxing and 1920 boxing in infrastructure, boxing grew.

I agree. I should have qualified "complicated." I simply meant that some things can not be categorically compared because they are fundamentally different. To say the world was smaller, that boxing was less international is qualified, it can be established. We know the different state of the world then and now. We know that more people from more areas have come into boxing, we can compare the world then and now.

Regarding Brazil...It was IMO the most international of all the combatives... Japanese, wrestlers of all stripes, etc... Notice I did not compare it to the present...

[billeau2]

You talk in circles.

You initially made comments that inferred older champions were not true champions because they did not fight across all nations.

You fail to point out fights such as these were not easy to put together in decades past. To make a fight occur a demand for that fight had to be in place.

Dempsey koed the Heavyweight champion of Europe and the best SA had to offer. Again at a time before mass electronic media where an opponent could be sold to an audience well in advance.

You stated Schmeling mostly fought German opponents. Untrue. Only 22 out of 71 fights were vs German opponents. His record looks like a who’s who of nationalities. European, American and SA.

The fact remains that boxing talent is not indicated by nationality.

Was this actually inferred?

The fact that something was "easy" or "not easy" is hardly substantive.

The point as I see it has nothing to do with talent. It has to do with the reach, the true spread of boxing and whether it could truly be said to be as widespread internationally as it is today.

Dempsey and Ruth, the roaring twenties were the first real recognized sports superstars. That should tell one all they need to know. Boxing was concentrated in America and partially in England, with very few opportunities outside of those areas.

I am not saying that Because boxing is truly international today it is better... I actually believe that the talent pool has been substantially watered down. yes we have more people, but we have less quality, and a lot of the most talented are going into other sports. But I do think M's point stands, as long as we do not judge ability based on the "spread" of the sport.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm not sure Sharkey could KO Canelo. Despite having a weight advantage over him.

- -Always exceptions, and Canelo at his top 185 lb fight weight prob KOs Sharkey.

[IronDanHamza]

Floyd, obviously.

[Bundana]

Was this actually inferred?

The fact that something was "easy" or "not easy" is hardly substantive.

The point as I see it has nothing to do with talent. It has to do with the reach, the true spread of boxing and whether it could truly be said to be as widespread internationally as it is today.

Dempsey and Ruth, the roaring twenties were the first real recognized sports superstars. That should tell one all they need to know. Boxing was concentrated in America and partially in England, with very few opportunities outside of those areas.

I am not saying that Because boxing is truly international today it is better... I actually believe that the talent pool has been substantially watered down. yes we have more people, but we have less quality, and a lot of the most talented are going into other sports. But I do think M's point stands, as long as we do not judge ability based on the "spread" of the sport.

Yep - spot on!

[Marchegiano]

You talk in circles.

You initially made comments that inferred older champions were not true champions because they did not fight across all nations.

You fail to point out fights such as these were not easy to put together in decades past. To make a fight occur a demand for that fight had to be in place.

Dempsey koed the Heavyweight champion of Europe and the best SA had to offer. Again at a time before mass electronic media where an opponent could be sold to an audience well in advance.

You stated Schmeling mostly fought German opponents. Untrue. Only 22 out of 71 fights were vs German opponents. His record looks like a who’s who of nationalities. European, American and SA.

The fact remains that boxing talent is not indicated by nationality.

I stopped reading this post quickly. I didn't challenge the champion end, I challenged the world end.