Anderson Silva vs Roy Jones

[billeau2]

I followed both their careers closely. Wallace had a great left leg kick and a good left hook. Lewis was a beast in his day and had an unstoppable side kick. They were both up there in age(for fighters) when they fought and not even close in weight like you mentioned. Lewis was a heavyweight and Wallace a middleweight. The Evil C got Lewis in the end, sadly.

They fought on the tourney circuit and weight classes would fight each other. It was tournament karate, but full contact. Norris was part of that gang as well.

The sidekick Lewis through was untelegraphed, it was more rightly termed a "mule kick" because you drop down and shoot the leg out in a pendulum....Interesting aside. It was what was called (at the time) a "blind technique." This is because when you let the kick fly, for a split second you lost visual contact with the opponent. It was indeed a devistating kick. You can step in first which is guaranteed to send opponent hit for a ride, or just drop down and shoot it.

A side kick in those days was a side of foot targeted blow, unless one did Korean Karate which has a different delivery.

[billeau2]

- -As to Bigfoot Wallace, what little I've seen, he is a true wonder.

As far as never being beat, he and Joe Lewis did an exhibition. After embarrassingly being slapped silly while using traditional boxing, Joe snatched his foot and drove him one footed into the ropes and mullered him softly. They reset and Joe repeated and a few x more. Had that been a legit match, the smaller Bigfoot would've been toast.

In karate the weight classes are not so important. They were both stone cold killers with their technique. So was Norris. Actually Mike Stone out of Hawai was stronger than either, though not s technically gifted. the end result of the karate tourneys was usually a lot of broken bones.

Remember something ... Kick Boxing orignally was a way for karate men to smack the living crap out of each other. Unfortunately it destroyed karate technique and became less than steller boxing.

[Anthony342]

In karate the weight classes are not so important. They were both stone cold killers with their technique. So was Norris. Actually Mike Stone out of Hawai was stronger than either, though not s technically gifted. the end result of the karate tourneys was usually a lot of broken bones.

Remember something ... Kick Boxing orignally was a way for karate men to smack the living crap out of each other. Unfortunately it destroyed karate technique and became less than steller boxing.

For the Gracies, it was usually the throws and leg submissions that got them if you're talking no holds barred fights. I guess those are mostly in the practice rooms though and in their younger days because Royce and Helio only have two losses on their official records with some draws as well and Rickson is undefeated at 11-0.

[VegasMichael]

In karate the weight classes are not so important. They were both stone cold killers with their technique. So was Norris. Actually Mike Stone out of Hawai was stronger than either, though not s technically gifted. the end result of the karate tourneys was usually a lot of broken bones.

Remember something ... Kick Boxing orignally was a way for karate men to smack the living crap out of each other. Unfortunately it destroyed karate technique and became less than steller boxing.

Yeah Norris was one of the top point fighters then and Mike Stone was like you said a tough customer. Lewis wasn't a huge fan of karate point fighting and welcomed the opportunity to go into kickboxing. Skipper Mullins was a great kicker as well although Norris had his number. I recently watched the Bill Wallace and Ray McCallum fight and Wallace really utilized his left hook in that fight. What did you mean when you said Korean karate delivers the sidekick differently? Did you mean more heel than blade of the foot?

[billeau2]

For the Gracies, it was usually the throws and leg submissions that got them if you're talking no holds barred fights. I guess those are mostly in the practice rooms though and in their younger days because Royce and Helio only have two losses on their official records with some draws as well and Rickson is undefeated at 11-0.

I have heard the leg submissions were a real weakness. The Russian guys in Sambo...that was one of their special areas. Its all Judo, its just that everyone took a piece of the art that appealed to them and developed it. The throws from classical Ju Jutsu had to be modified which was a bit of a problem. The reason given for this is "the old throws were too deadly" and while there is some truth to this, the whole approach to the throw changes so much...

Sports combat depends on fighting for position, to get the set up working, then you apply technique. Combat theory depends on using technique to unbalance, (Kuzishi) then you apply another technique.

[billeau2]

Yeah Norris was one of the top point fighters then and Mike Stone was like you said a tough customer. Lewis wasn't a huge fan of karate point fighting and welcomed the opportunity to go into kickboxing. Skipper Mullins was a great kicker as well although Norris had his number. I recently watched the Bill Wallace and Ray McCallum fight and Wallace really utilized his left hook in that fight. What did you mean when you said Korean karate delivers the sidekick differently? Did you mean more heel than blade of the foot?

McCallum! Yup another one lol. Korean kicking tecnique is a combo of Japanese karate and a folk are known as Tai Kyon. My spelling is atrocious! Tai Kyon has a lot more hip flexability and more acrobatic type kicking.

So when we get to an art like Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo do, or any of the other Kwan (schools) what you see is a side kick that uses the heel more, turns the body more, sort of in between a side and back kick, and lets the anchor foot turn so the hip can turn more on the kick. It is a more powerful kick than a side kick, and when it is practiced gives someone good kicking dynamics. The main thing is the back foot turning out so the heel can make the contact (top of the foot/heel area). Unlike a karate side kick, which is a blade side kick, one has to master the simultaneous movement of the back foot and the leg swinging out, as you turn the kicking leg over towards the heel.

The other thing that makes someone really good with this Korean kick is keeping that kicking leg as close to the body as possible. Same principle in a back kick, even in arts like Capoera. The closer the leg, the more the strike is going directly to target and cannot be countered to the inside. Also makes the kick more powerful...same principle as a straight punch.

By the way: None of that gang liked point karate because people were getting broken up and they had to stop the action. Unfortunately karate is an art that works under very different dynamics than boxing. So they got to beat on each other to their hearts content when kick boxing was created, but they lost the very thing that makes karate effective.

Its like training for many many years, throwing each other around the mats, then learning how to really do the technique realizing you can't play with it like you could when you were learning. You need to go through that process of training but there is a time after that where technical excellence makes practicing hammer and tongs, unrealistic.

[VegasMichael]

McCallum! Yup another one lol. Korean kicking tecnique is a combo of Japanese karate and a folk are known as Tai Kyon. My spelling is atrocious! Tai Kyon has a lot more hip flexability and more acrobatic type kicking.

So when we get to an art like Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo do, or any of the other Kwan (schools) what you see is a side kick that uses the heel more, turns the body more, sort of in between a side and back kick, and lets the anchor foot turn so the hip can turn more on the kick. It is a more powerful kick than a side kick, and when it is practiced gives someone good kicking dynamics. The main thing is the back foot turning out so the heel can make the contact (top of the foot/heel area). Unlike a karate side kick, which is a blade side kick, one has to master the simultaneous movement of the back foot and the leg swinging out, as you turn the kicking leg over towards the heel.

The other thing that makes someone really good with this Korean kick is keeping that kicking leg as close to the body as possible. Same principle in a back kick, even in arts like Capoera. The closer the leg, the more the strike is going directly to target and cannot be countered to the inside. Also makes the kick more powerful...same principle as a straight punch.

By the way: None of that gang liked point karate because people were getting broken up and they had to stop the action. Unfortunately karate is an art that works under very different dynamics than boxing. So they got to beat on each other to their hearts content when kick boxing was created, but they lost the very thing that makes karate effective.

Its like training for many many years, throwing each other around the mats, then learning how to really do the technique realizing you can't play with it like you could when you were learning. You need to go through that process of training but there is a time after that where technical excellence makes practicing hammer and tongs, unrealistic.

Funny about the tae kwon do kick. I studied TKD at two different schools and both said I was doing it wrong. The way they wanted me to do it was like you said: turn the hip over more and hit with the heel. It always felt more like a back thrust kick to me(which I was pretty good at). I could snap the sidekick out faster without turning my hip over although it was less powerful.

You stated that "they got to beat on each other to their hearts content when kick boxing was created, but they lost the very thing that makes karate effective." Can you clarify that a bit inre what they lost that made karate effective?

[billeau2]

Funny about the tae kwon do kick. I studied TKD at two different schools and both said I was doing it wrong. The way they wanted me to do it was like you said: turn the hip over more and hit with the heel. It always felt more like a back thrust kick to me(which I was pretty good at). I could snap the sidekick out faster without turning my hip over although it was less powerful.

You stated that "they got to beat on each other to their hearts content when kick boxing was created, but they lost the very thing that makes karate effective." Can you clarify that a bit inre what they lost that made karate effective?

I hear you. Historically Tae Kwon Do sought to distinguish itself from Japanese influences. Tang Soo Do which literally translates as Kara- Te (empty hand) sort of stayed the course and you have lower stances and more Japanese karate artifacts in that system. But TKD became much more about kicking with full body movements. If you study Korean modern history in the martial arts you will see that it is structured along organizations that are like schools, societies...It comes from the Hwang Do, or the flower club, which was a warrior society in ancient Korea that molded the lives of young men.

The Kwans (these groups) developed into different fighting outfits. MooDuk Kwan is actually a style that uses more hand strikes, something like Kuk Sool Wan is Kung Fu and Hap Ki Do is Akijutsu like in its circular movements and linear in its striking... Though these schools generally speaking do not have the exactitude of the original Japanese Arts, that I have seen. But TKD does have very nice kicking technique. It is good practice to think of kicking from the side position flexably. One can even do a front kick from the side position...And by the time we get to what Lewis achieved (taught in Okinawa) one can just drop down and fire a kick that is between a back and side kick with GREAT power generated.

I used this kick as well, we were taught it via Riley Hawkins, who taught my karate teacher. Riley actually went to Okinawa and exchanged many technical skills with fighters from the Okinawan Te (Sho Ran Ryu/Goju Ryu as well). The result was many great fighters coming out of the African American community, lighting people up in tournaments everywhere lol. I was taught by Black teachers, Sempi (older students) and as a White boy was the "runt" of the litter so to speak . But for the efforts of very talented fighters in our group I would not have been very good at all. As it was, with their efforts I became an excellent fighter and teacher. I still think of myself s a teacher because I don't really like to fight, other than the adrenaline rush.

But I digress... Ok lets talk Karate dynamics: karate was designed orginally to generate somewhat superhuman strength by maximizing training and using a body position that had mobility but depended on being grounded for power. Okinawan Te, or Shuri Te, (open hand) which later becomes Sho Ran Ryu and Goju Ryu...was characterized by a low center of gravity and a relatively high stance... One could then move well and hit and defend in any position.

When you box. You move up and down, and you depend on stepping, or shooting your weight fowards into your punch. karate depends on grounding and shooting the spine and hand out from a static/stable position. Chinese boxing and older Japanese arts show that when someone hits they put their weight fowards to do so. Dempsey taught boxers to do the same: to come fowards and drop the weight simultaneously with the punch hitting the target. So a boxer is mobile and light until they launch into the attack and the power they gain comes from speed, and weight distribution.

In karate the power comes from the body sinking and locking enough to form a chain where the hand, elbow and waist all temporarily lock into a semi-permanent position as the blow is delivered. If you look at the older styles from Okinawa, in most of them the punching hand is not even turned, it shoots out with the front knuckle extended into the target. later as these dynamics become more for the sake of form, in Japanese karate (shotokan) the hand and first two knuckles are held flat, the other hand is drawn back to the hip, the body position is low. In Shotokan karate is distilled to its most basic quality: Every block, every strike is done as though breaking the object. This gives a person great power and virtually no mobility. But like all the later Japanese arts, the Do's (karate do judo kendo Akido) the emphasis is not combat, it is form.

So the difference between the boxer, whether he be a chinese boxer, Western boxer, kick boxer, is that power comes differently and so they move differently. The one exception to this is Thai and Burmese boxing (Bando) which, one may notice does not depend as much on dropping the weight and moving the body lightly, as maximizing power from the ground up. Karate in combat looks immobile, the person sets and strikes from a base, violently turning the spine while dropping the hips and locking the leg, or arm out for an instant as contact is made.

As said earlier, weight differences are less important in karate. Allegedly the late Robert Trias, often considered the father of American Okinawan Te, kept ignoring this light OKinawan guy who wanted a friendly bout. Trias was the middle weight champ for the armed services and they were in Okinawa. this guy was a karate instructor, an Okinawan of some repute. Finally, Triase was like OK OK OK!!! laughing, because he was at least 50 pounds heavier than this guy... And indeed one of them did wipe the floor with the other, but it was the opposite way. As Trias later said " I could not hit him!! but he could catch me."

When the fighting was in the tourneys Wallace's weight difference did not make the same difference against Lewis. When they made it so they could hit each other, they stopped grounding and just used boxing to hit each other...it got so bad in kick boxing that they put in a rule that 7 kicks has to be thrown a round. So... the boxers would, upon the bell ringing, throw the leg up seven times and box the remainder of the round.

[VegasMichael]

^Great explanation. Much appreciated.

[billeau2]

^Great explanation. Much appreciated.

It is a pleasure. I taught for many years. Still do occasionally. Trying to get the kids to train that is not easy. i started in Karate for about 15 years. In those days rank was not inflated. In all that time I was the highest ranked under my teacher who was a 5th dan and my rank was 2nd dan. Then I studied traditional japanese arts for the remainder, still studying. Classical Ju Jutsu, AikiJutsu and I studied the Booj for a while (about 12 years). The Bujinkan is the worse for rank inflation. See guys who have 10nth degree black belts when some of the older teachers who really knew what they were doing under Hatsumi, with less rank, while these 10nth dans are awful. Its just a shame.