Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Dr. Z]

In1908 Blackburn scaled 147lbs to fight Jack O Brien162lbs.OBrien a non- puncher beat him up and floored him yet you say Johnson the heavyweight Champion avoided him? Do you know Blackburn was an absolute **** when he was drinking, everyone avoided him! Why would Johnson be afraid to tangle with an alcoholic former light weight?

O'Brein out boxed a prime Jack Johnson according to some in a 6 round no decision. All 162 pounds of him. He never got a rematch, Nor did Jim Batting Johnson in a dubious darw where Jack Johnson was nearly out at the 10th and final round. Johnson normal tactic of clinching at hitting would not work vs a guy who could box and move which is why he struggled with O'brien nor did it work with a prime big man Battling Jim's size or Willard size. Just imagine if Johnson fought prime versions of Jeffries, Langford, McVey, Jeannete, and Wills. They would be without a doubt better than anyone he lost too, and beat! That's a fact, just likes I told you his early wins over teenagers and novices nothing.

But you don't address such points, instead you go way off tangent listing former free masons. I don't think the forum is interested in them, and a mason of that level is way more important in what he did with society then you will ever be. It's a pyramid scheme among other things and you are nothing but a worker ant.


Jack Johnson vs Battling Jim

• This was the first World Heavyweight Championship fight fought between two black fighters.
• On November 6, 1913, the International Boxing Union met in Paris and voted to withdraw recognition of Johnson as world champion because he "persistently refused to meet his challengers and because of his conviction of white slavery." Johnson had come to Paris several months earlier from Chicago, where he had been convicted of violating the Mann Act.
• The December 20, 1913, edition of the Saskatoon Phoenix (Saskatoon, Canada) stated:

Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another colored pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a ten-round contest here to-night, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed, and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone.

• A cabled article printed in the Evening World (New York City) stated:

Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts

>>> Battling Jim's record coming into the fight was 28-10-5. Lots of guys beat him.

[Ivich]

Their styles. McVey and Jeannette were wrestlers and relied heavily upon clinching and leveraging their size against a smaller opponent.

No they, didn't both fought from range Jeannette behind a jab ,watch his Paris fight with Langford.You really dont know much about this era do you?

[Ivich]

O'Brein out boxed a prime Jack Johnson according to some in a 6 round no decision. All 162 pounds of him. He never got a rematch, Nor did Jim Batting Johnson in a dubious darw where Jack Johnson was nearly out at the 10th and final round. Johnson normal tactic of clinching at hitting would not work vs a guy who could box and move which is why he struggled with O'brien nor did it work with a prime big man Battling Jim's size or Willard size. Just imagine if Johnson fought prime versions of Jeffries, Langford, McVey, Jeannete, and Wills. They would be without a doubt better than anyone he lost too, and beat! That's a fact, just likes I told you his early wins over teenagers and novices nothing.

But you don't address such points, instead you go way off tangent listing former free masons. I don't think the forum is interested in them, and a mason of that level is way more important in what he did with society then you will ever be. It's a pyramid scheme among other things and you are nothing but a worker ant.


Jack Johnson vs Battling Jim

• This was the first World Heavyweight Championship fight fought between two black fighters.
• On November 6, 1913, the International Boxing Union met in Paris and voted to withdraw recognition of Johnson as world champion because he "persistently refused to meet his challengers and because of his conviction of white slavery." Johnson had come to Paris several months earlier from Chicago, where he had been convicted of violating the Mann Act.
• The December 20, 1913, edition of the Saskatoon Phoenix (Saskatoon, Canada) stated:

Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another colored pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a ten-round contest here to-night, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed, and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone.

• A cabled article printed in the Evening World (New York City) stated:

Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts

>>> Battling Jim's record coming into the fight was 28-10-5. Lots of guys beat him.

I've adressed the points on other forums literally dozens of times but haters like you and G O Dempsey don't want to hear it.You both just want to unload your venom on Johnson
Now I'll answer your lies, not for you two bigots but for anyone who might be interested in the real facts.
Fact. Neither Johnson or O Brien [ not O Brein] weighed in for their 6rds no decision bout.
This was Johnson's 1 st defence of his title,in the 5 months since winning his ttile Johnson had been partying hard.. Johnson knowing O Brien had no punch and that therefore he was in no danger of losing his title in a 6 rounds no decision bout, took the opportunity to come in overweight and untrained.He was at a party the night before the fight.Entering the ring he was described as fat.O Brien as in terrific shape.
Any genuine posters wishing to know details can pm me.You two clowns ignore facts so there is no point in presenting them to you.Here is the Box Rec brief summary.

"Three or four times during the mix-ups, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes." (Philadelphia Inquirer). The Philadelphia Inquirer scored for Johnson. Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald). The NY Times ruled it a draw. Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade. The Sports editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won at any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap." The Philadelphia Item stated that O'Brien soundly out-boxed Johnson. All-in-all, it seems that the best choice would be to show it as a draw. It must be borne in mind that
1.Johnson was boxing in O Brien's home town.
2.O Brien was white,Johnson black.
3. A clever light heavyweight, O Brien was the 175lbs champion ,can make a heavyweight look less than brilliant in a 6 rounder especially if that heavyweight has not taken the fight seriously and come in over weight ,and out of shape,[Johnson was described as breathing heavily as early as the end of the first round,]and the light heavyweight contents himself with back pedalling all night and makes no serious effort to make the fight.
Jim Jeffries was asked about the fight the next day he said he wasnt surprised that O Brien went the distance.as he was known as a clever defensive boxer and such a fighter could make any man look bad for 6 rounds.
There was no demand for another fight between the two as even the Philadelphia papers conceded.
I think this puts things into perspective.
It should be noted that O Brien could never master Tommy Burns and Johnson toyed with Burns before stopping him . O Brien was also twice ko'd by Ketchel,Johnson toyed with Ketchel before knocking him out.

Jim Johnson.
The champion was 35 years old and had not fought for a year and a half.
The champ broke a bone in his arm in the 3rd round,until then he was described as toying with his opponent.Instead of quitting as Harry Wills did with a similar injury against Battling JIm, Johnson continued to fight through the pain ,the ten rounder developed into a maul the champ fighting one handed and the challenger unable to get the better of even a one handed version of Jack Johnson.The fight was ruled a draw and nobody protested it.
The Evening World did not have a reporter present at the fight thue relied on an AP report.
Mendoza once tried to claim it was a scheduled 20 rounder that was shortened to 10 rounds to save Johnson's title but a very good poster posted the original bill showing that it was always scheduled for 10 rounds,whereupon Mendoza quietly folded his tent and crept away.
Johnson'a style would not work against bigger men such as Willard and Battling Jim?
Against Willard the 37 years old Johnson was in front after 25 round and the referee stated had he been called upon to render a decision after 20 rounds he would have unhesitatingly have awarded the fight to Johnson. So what exactly about his style didnt work against the giant?

Battling Jim couldn't beat a one armed,physically handicapped and in pain Johnson ,so Johnson's style did not let him down against his opponent did it?
Battling Jim was not of the first rank but he did gain victories over the following;
Jeannette x2
Wills
Arthur Pelkey
Bill Tate
Kid Cotton
Black Bill
Jeff Clark

He also held to a draw
Langford
McVey
Jeanette
That answers your lies.
The French Federation backtracked on their decison to strip Johnson of his title less than a month later and restored recognition to Johnson,outside of France nobody noticed and nobody cared.

You raised the issue of Free Masonry NOT ME and you did so in an attempt to discredit me.
Stating they were "devil worshippers [you ****ed up there calling them devil worriers]lol and Kid Fiddlers
When I produced a list of former masons including many Presidents,Kings ,Prime Ministers etc you realised your error and dropped it!
Now you ,who are not a Mason ,and have no inside knowledge of it, say that it is a pyramid scheme and that I am of the low order,"a worker ant"

1.Explain how this "pyramid scheme," works?
2.Which Presidents ,were"devil worshippers " and which were" kid fiddlers"?
Are
George Washington
Abraham Lincoln
FDR
LBJ
Ronald Reagan
Harry Truman
In this category?
How about other Masons?
Martin Luther King
General MaCarthur
Benjamin Franklin
Ray Robinson
Jack Dempsey
John Wayne
Mark Twain
Arnold Palmer
Ty Cobb
Which of these were *****philes?
Which of these worshipped the devil?
Careful how you answer the following two questions
As I am a Mason
Am I a devil worshipper?
Am I a *****phile?


You have no idea how the hierachy of Free Masonry works, nor have you the slightest clue as to what rank I have attained within it.
In closing you are an ignorant, bigoted fool, driven by a hate agenda who would be looked upon with pity if he were not so phobically deluded ,and poisonous.
You really need help!
Now can we return to BOXING?

[Dr. Z]

Yet both beat Langford? How was that possible?

English here isn't the best. Yes, he beat a 20 year old 15d pound Sam Langford once. So what. Sam hardly had any expect at heavyweight and he was very young and outweighed by 30 pounds! Johnson was a full grown man when is happened. He should win. Yet lost a bet that he would stop Langford.

Johnson's showing was commented on by everybody who declared that his challenges to Jeffries were preposterous. He would have been an easy mark for the champion had he been taken on.

- Boston globe 1906.

[GhostofDempsey]

No they, didn't both fought from range Jeannette behind a jab ,watch his Paris fight with Langford.You really dont know much about this era do you?

Stop, unless you were at ringside for all of their fights, the footage I've seen of either of them tell a different story. You have an agenda against Langford, it's well documented in your McVey account on the other site where you were banned.

[Ivich]

English here isn't the best. Yes, he beat a 20 year old 15d pound Sam Langford once. So what. Sam hardly had any expect at heavyweight and he was very young and outweighed by 30 pounds! Johnson was a full grown man when is happened. He should win. Yet lost a bet that he would stop Langford.

- Boston globe 1906.

I was referring to Mcvey and Jeannette beating Langford .exactly how dense are you?
15 d Langford? What does this mean?
Hardly any expect at heavweight?Is this a code?
Neither Johnson or Langford weighed in. do you actually understand that?
Johnson did not bet he would stop Langford, nor did he try to.More BS from you.
Johnson knocked Langford down twice .some say 3 times,he broke his nose and as Langford himself said,
"gave me an awful licking."

Once he had established his dominance over a fighter Johnson rarely went for the finish,he was content to coast along, doing just enough to control the action.
I take it you've no further comment to make about me being a Free Mason?

That's the only sensible thing you've done since you started this hate campaign!

[Dr. Z]

I was referring to Mcvey and Jeannette beating Langford .exactly how dense are you?
15 d Langford? What does this mean?
Hardly any expect at heavweight?Is this a code?
Neither Johnson or Langford weighed in. do you actually understand that?
Johnson did not bet he would stop Langford, nor did he try to.More BS from you.
Johnson knocked Langford down twice .some say 3 times,he broke his nose and as Langford himself said,
"gave me an awful licking."

Once he had established his dominance over a fighter Johnson rarely went for the finish,he was content to coast along, doing just enough to control the action.
I take it you've no further comment to make about me being a Free Mason?

That's the only sensible thing you've done since you started this hate campaign!

Are you suggesting that Johnson was trying to carry to 20 year old 156 pound Langford? He made a bet to knock him outs and failed. I'm quoting the weights given by box rec. Would your prefer I quote Langford listed with in 1905, the year before vs Dave Holly? Langford was 150 pounds there.

I didn't start this thread and by the looks of it you have issues with other posters. Try paying attention to the facts I write and respond directly to what I say.

The only thing you responded to directly was you are being a free Mason and listing men of significance as if that matters. You have none

[Dr. Z]

Stop, unless you were at ringside for all of their fights, the footage I've seen of either of them tell a different story. You have an agenda against Langford, it's well documented in your McVey account on the other site where you were banned.

He had several poster names there. Tonto62 was one of them when McVey was banned! He reports what suits his agenda and leaves other stuff out of the same report.

[GhostofDempsey]

He had several poster names there. Tonto62 was one of them when McVey was banned! He reports what suits his agenda and leaves other stuff out of the same report.

He started posting here regularly several months ago which correlates with his ban over there. Same abrasive posting style. He came on like a bull in a china shop, insulting anyone who disagreed with him and making snide comments, all while playing the victim if you dished it back to him.

[Ivich]

Stop, unless you were at ringside for all of their fights, the footage I've seen of either of them tell a different story. You have an agenda against Langford, it's well documented in your McVey account on the other site where you were banned.

What footage have you seen of McVey and Jeannete clinching and using their weight on smaller opponents?
In which fights?
I have ringside reports of the Jeannete v Mcvey Paris marathon.
The Langford v McVey Australian controversial fight.
The Langford v Hague London fight ,Sam's best purse.
The Langford v Lang London fight.
The first Langford v Flynn fight.
The McVey v Battling Jim fight.
The first Jeannette v Battling Jim fight.
Four of the Jeannette v Johnson fights.
The three McVey v Johnson fights.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE?

NOPE YOU ARE AS USUAL MISTAKEN.
I am a huge admirer of Langford and bought Clay Moyle's biography on him, I have also corresponded with Clay about Langford and Clay and I are Face Book friends . I along with the majority consider Clay the acknowledged expert on Sam.
His book is thoroughly recommended
So you could not be more wrong!
.Langford is in my top 5 P4P all time and I would not argue with anyone putting him higher, he was a very great fighter.
.Maybe the best never to hold the heavyweight crown.
You've seen no negative posts on any forum from me concerning Langford so,you are either .
lying or you are being coached in lies by a liar ie Mendoza..If you don't feel rather silly now, you should!
Keep It Coming! It's raining here and I welcome the diversion!