James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[sonnyboyx2]

He fought on par with McCallum yeah, on par. I had him drawing and losing.

Again another reason why I think he's overrated. McCallum is better than him IMO but you don't see that being said you see it said the other way around.

People also don't take his fights and performances with Tiberi, Thadzi, Johnson, Griffin, Sosa into account either. You say he held his own with the heavyweight contenders well all of the above more than held their own with Toney. Thadzi and Tiberi beat him clearly and they're fringe contenders at best. Why isn't that taken into account and a knock on him?

That should be focused on more than the fact he lost and drew with some heavyweight contenders.

McCallum is an excellent fighter, yet i had Toney beating him their first two fights. I also had Toney beating Johnson, Sosa and Griffin (twice)... Toney vs Thadzi...

I found this on another website...

I have a special place for the Thadzi-Toney fight. I promoted it when I was the Director of Boxing for the Foxwoods Resort/Casino.

The fight was supposed to have been for the WBU light heavyweight crown. Toney swore to me he’d make the light heavyweight limit of 175 pounds. When he arrived at the hotel three days before the fight, he looked at least 10 pounds over that weight.

“Don’t worry about me,” he told me. “My weight is fine.”

The next morning, I watched him train in a rubber suit for over an hour. Most of his time was spent on a Stair Master. He also shadow-boxed and jumped rope. When he was finished, he returned to the locker room and peeled off the rubber suit. Water poured out. He stepped on the scale. It said 175 pounds.

“I told you not to worry,” he said. “I’ll dry out tonight and weigh even less tomorrow.” Then he added, “I can fight at light heavyweight, I can fight at cruiserweight and I can even go up to heavyweight and be successful. Don’t doubt me. I’m telling you, I can be the heavyweight champion of the world!”

That night, at around 11:00, I was sitting at the bar on the exclusive 8th Floor—where most of the casino’s “high-rollers” stayed—talking with a few sportswriters who were up to cover the bout. They were devouring plate after plate of jumbo shrimp and other goodies from the food bar directly behind us. As I looked in the mirror inside the bar area, Toney’s image behind me caught my eye. He had a su****ious look on his face, as if he was doing something wrong. I watched him. He was. He was breaking training.

Only that morning, he trained incredibly hard in a rubber suit, killing himself to make weight, anxiously waiting to fight Thadzi. Now, there he was, fighting his junk food craving—and losing. I watched him take handfuls of chocolate and stuff them into his right pocket. Then he took another handful and stuffed them into his left pocket. I turned to face him.

“James, what in the world are you doing?” I asked him.

He was truly the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. In this case, it was on the dessert tray.

“I, uh, I’m bringing these things to a few friends who are in my suite.”
I glared at him.

“Tell them they can come out here and take all they want,” I told him.

“Uh, that’s, uh, okay,” he stammered. “I think they’re, uh, tired.

I glared at him some more.

“Hey, it’s your fight to win, James,” I told him. “It’s also your fight to lose.”

“It don’t matter,” he said, waving his right hand. “I’m gonn’ kick his butt no matter what.

Toney then disappeared into his suite and most likely had himself a chocolate party. A one-man chocolate party. The next night, he failed to make weight. Then he ran out of gas late in the fight and was outpointed by Drake..

Here is an interesting article from Boxing Scene:

http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-...s-toney--17450

[IronDanHamza]

McCallum is an excellent fighter, yet i had Toney beating him their first two fights. I also had Toney beating Johnson, Sosa and Griffin (twice)... Toney vs Thadzi...

I found this on another website...

I have a special place for the Thadzi-Toney fight. I promoted it when I was the Director of Boxing for the Foxwoods Resort/Casino.

The fight was supposed to have been for the WBU light heavyweight crown. Toney swore to me he’d make the light heavyweight limit of 175 pounds. When he arrived at the hotel three days before the fight, he looked at least 10 pounds over that weight.

“Don’t worry about me,” he told me. “My weight is fine.”

The next morning, I watched him train in a rubber suit for over an hour. Most of his time was spent on a Stair Master. He also shadow-boxed and jumped rope. When he was finished, he returned to the locker room and peeled off the rubber suit. Water poured out. He stepped on the scale. It said 175 pounds.

“I told you not to worry,” he said. “I’ll dry out tonight and weigh even less tomorrow.” Then he added, “I can fight at light heavyweight, I can fight at cruiserweight and I can even go up to heavyweight and be successful. Don’t doubt me. I’m telling you, I can be the heavyweight champion of the world!”

That night, at around 11:00, I was sitting at the bar on the exclusive 8th Floor—where most of the casino’s “high-rollers” stayed—talking with a few sportswriters who were up to cover the bout. They were devouring plate after plate of jumbo shrimp and other goodies from the food bar directly behind us. As I looked in the mirror inside the bar area, Toney’s image behind me caught my eye. He had a su****ious look on his face, as if he was doing something wrong. I watched him. He was. He was breaking training.

Only that morning, he trained incredibly hard in a rubber suit, killing himself to make weight, anxiously waiting to fight Thadzi. Now, there he was, fighting his junk food craving—and losing. I watched him take handfuls of chocolate and stuff them into his right pocket. Then he took another handful and stuffed them into his left pocket. I turned to face him.

“James, what in the world are you doing?” I asked him.

He was truly the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. In this case, it was on the dessert tray.

“I, uh, I’m bringing these things to a few friends who are in my suite.”
I glared at him.

“Tell them they can come out here and take all they want,” I told him.

“Uh, that’s, uh, okay,” he stammered. “I think they’re, uh, tired.

I glared at him some more.

“Hey, it’s your fight to win, James,” I told him. “It’s also your fight to lose.”

“It don’t matter,” he said, waving his right hand. “I’m gonn’ kick his butt no matter what.

Toney then disappeared into his suite and most likely had himself a chocolate party. A one-man chocolate party. The next night, he failed to make weight. Then he ran out of gas late in the fight and was outpointed by Drake..

Here is an interesting article from Boxing Scene:

http://www.boxingscene.com/measured-...s-toney--17450

I don't need to hear about Toney losing fights because he was out of shape. Heard it countless times. Over and over again. For the last 20 years.

Thadzi had a GREAT game plan and exploited Toney's weaknesses and was the better man on the night. End of story. Was he out of shape? Yeah probably because he missed the weight but that's his own fault.

You had Toney winning both Griffin fights but he lost both. Just like I had Johnson beating Toney, but Toney got the decision. Exactly the same thing.

I had Toney beating Sosa but it's yet another fight that he failed to dominate and faded late and made the fight closer than it should have been and apparently he was in shape for that one.

[Barn]

Been a very enlightening thread. I personally didn't realise so many of his wins were close!!! Will need to watch the McCallum fights as they sound like my kind of bouts.

[IronDanHamza]

Been a very enlightening thread. I personally didn't realise so many of his wins were close!!! Will need to watch the McCallum fights as they sound like my kind of bouts.

Toney-McCallum 1 was a classic. One of the best fights I've seen it had everything.

Both highly skilled operators, both durable, hungry, letting their hands go. "The body snatcher" throwing vicious body shots. Toney was always open to the body especially the right hook. That's fight is the epitome of a "high paced chess match" but both men would sit down and grit their teeth and fight when needed. Great fight and a draw was perfect.

Second fight whilst still a good fight no where near as good. The theme being Toney landing the flashier, cleaner shots but McCallum being smarter and out working him. Close fight again but for me McCallum did enough to edge it. The scorecards were an absolute joke.

But yeah watch those immediately if you're yet to see them.

[IronDanHamza]

Been a very enlightening thread. I personally didn't realise so many of his wins were close!!! Will need to watch the McCallum fights as they sound like my kind of bouts.

You'd have a much easier time citing a Toney fight worth mentioning that wasn't close.

I've got Barkley, Little, erm, top of my head I genuinely can't think of another one.

Even the fights he pulled the KO in, Nunn he was well behind and Prince Charles Williams was a close one also.

[BKM-]

Iron Dan you are downplaying Roy Jones' best win in this thread which contradicts with your other thread.

[IronDanHamza]

Iron Dan you are downplaying Roy Jones' best win in this thread which contradicts with your other thread.

How so?

Firstly that thread is to delve into Jones "weak opponents" and compare Roy's performances against the so called "weak opponents" compared to the other top SMW's and LHW's of that era and how they performed against those same fighters. James Toney is not included in that thread.

Secondly, James Toney may be overrated but he's still a sure fire HOF'er and no one dominated him every second of every round like Roy did which is very impressive to say the least.

[BKM-]

How so?

Firstly that thread is to delve into Jones "weak opponents" and compare Roy's performances against the so called "weak opponents" compared to the other top SMW's and LHW's of that era and how they performed against those same fighters. James Toney is not included in that thread.

Secondly, James Toney may be overrated but he's still a sure fire HOF'er and no one dominated him every second of every round like Roy did which is very impressive to say the least.

But that's saying that Roy doesn't have a win over a prime ATG which I believe to be false.

I also don't buy into the excuses some people make for Toney's loss, the stuff about being out of shape or drained etc.

[chocolate]

He had the talent but not the discipline.

[nivek535]

I agree he looked amazing, at times. Keywords - "at times".

He also looked very poor at times aswell.

He's an inconsistent fighter IMO both inside and outside the ring.

I also don't agree with you that his movement is amazing. Whilst yes his upper body movement is impressive His footwork and general movement on the feet is not great IMO.

Can't say i disagree.
Figured "movement" is a poor choice of word since he lacks footwork haha.
Obvious in the rjj fight. But then rjj is a different animal after all.