James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[IronDanHamza]

See this is the kind of crap that makes no one here take what you say seriously...

They are professional fighters fighting at world level...they all have well developed considerable amounts of skill. Some obviously more so than others but to say that "whenever the other guy had skills Toney struggled" is just ******ed and shows that your knowledge of the sport is totally abysmal.

For some reason in boxing we have to suffer idiots who have never even sparred before, and deal with them saying all these ******ed things. Its like forcing NBA fans to listen to some jackass who's never even dribbled a ball in his life.

Its the reason we all cringe when some idiot like max kellerman starts trying to break down a fight and comment on whats happening.

I think you'll find many here do take what I say seriously, actually. Particularly in this section.

I mean a high skill level such as himself.

You know nothing of myself nor my experience in boxing so please refrain from your assumptions.

[IronDanHamza]

Adolpho Washington was highly rated when Toney knocked him out. Dan i can see your reasoning in this thread, but it's based on how YOU scored the fights, not how the judges scored those fights. Toney vs McCallum (1 & 2) were exceptional "Boxing Fights".. the skills shown by both fighters over 24rds were excellent, with the fight going too and fro. Those 24rds show it is not possible to make claim James Toney is overrated. Toney's complete anihilation of Iran Barkley ia again, proof he is not overrated. Toney's come-from-behind KO of Prime Michael Nunn. The Jirov and Charles Williams fights. His comebacks against Reggie Johnson & Tim Littles show he cannot be overrated and this is before we get up to his heavyweight days. This thread should be looked at in ...."The Quality of Opponents Toney has fought during his championship years"....He has fought some excellent opponents, with only Roy Jones Jr. being dominant over him. The same Roy Jones Jr. was also dominant over Bernard Hopkins. But none of Toney's opponents have "Taken him to school"... Holyfield, Rahman, Ruiz, Peter, Oquendo all Champions or contenders in the heavyweight division, failed to put a dent in Toney.... James Toney overrated?..IMO an incredible fighter.

Nah. It's not about that at all.

Other than Tiberi and Thadzi (two clear loss's) how I scored the fights are irrelevant because they all could have gone either way. I just threw my personal view in there as its my thread.

I had Johnson and McCallum 2 scored for them, but can't complain with the result. But I also had Griffin 2 scored for Toney but can't complain with that result either.

The point I'm making is Toney never dominated an top level opponent in impressive fashion.

To say "he annihilated Iran Barkley therefore he's not overrated" is absurd to me. Nigel Benn knocked out Barkley in 1 round. Don't get me wrong Barkley was a good solid fighter but nothing to shout and scream about.

Toney-McCallum 1 I will state again is one of the best fights I've ever seen and the epitome of a "draw" as you'll ever see and Toney showed his skill level to compete with an ATG like McCallum like that across 2 fights but that doesn't mean he's not overrated either.

I feel he's overrated because we have a guy like Mike McCallum who's never talked about for the most part who has a better resume, more dominant, more dominant victories yet Toney is held in higher regard for some reason.

As for being dominated I thought Tiberi and Thdazi beat him pretty easily and clearly.

[billeau2]

Nah. It's not about that at all.

Other than Tiberi and Thadzi (two clear loss's) how I scored the fights are irrelevant because they all could have gone either way. I just threw my personal view in there as its my thread.

I had Johnson and McCallum 2 scored for them, but can't complain with the result. But I also had Griffin 2 scored for Toney but can't complain with that result either.

The point I'm making is Toney never dominated an top level opponent in impressive fashion.

To say "he annihilated Iran Barkley therefore he's not overrated" is absurd to me. Nigel Benn knocked out Barkley in 1 round. Don't get me wrong Barkley was a good solid fighter but nothing to shout and scream about.

Toney-McCallum 1 I will state again is one of the best fights I've ever seen and the epitome of a "draw" as you'll ever see and Toney showed his skill level to compete with an ATG like McCallum like that across 2 fights but that doesn't mean he's not overrated either.

I feel he's overrated because we have a guy like Mike McCallum who's never talked about for the most part who has a better resume, more dominant, more dominant victories yet Toney is held in higher regard for some reason.

As for being dominated I thought Tiberi and Thdazi beat him pretty easily and clearly.

Is Toney held above MCcallum? I always thought that while regular fans in the USA would KNOW Toney perhaps, people with some insight would consider both MCcallum and Toney around the same level. I meant to ask you about that before actually. You are in the UK and have a wealth of knowledge so it will be interesting to get your take on this...I mean in the uK don't people hold MCcallum in as high regard as Toney?

I also know that MCcallum has become the new "grey goose vodka" among those fans making a switch from casuals to being "sophisticated" I thnk you made this point before, or someone did. Thats true!

[IronDanHamza]

Is Toney held above MCcallum? I always thought that while regular fans in the USA would KNOW Toney perhaps, people with some insight would consider both MCcallum and Toney around the same level. I meant to ask you about that before actually. You are in the UK and have a wealth of knowledge so it will be interesting to get your take on this...I mean in the uK don't people hold MCcallum in as high regard as Toney?

I also know that MCcallum has become the new "grey goose vodka" among those fans making a switch from casuals to being "sophisticated" I thnk you made this point before, or someone did. Thats true!

I would say not just here in the UK but in general that Mike McCallum is relatively unknown especially to the casual audience unlike James Toney who is very well known.

Amongst fans and forum posters I would say I've rarely seen McCallum's name in an ATG discussion unless we're taking exclusively Jr Middleweight where IMO he's the best ever at that weight. James Toney is often cited as an ATG which I disagree with whereas McCallum who believe is an ATG I rarely see that citied.

But that's just my experience.

[The Old LefHook]

A boxer gets no ATG credit for what someone thinks they could have done if they were in shape. They only get credit for what they did, straight up, whether in shape or out. That is an end on it.

As for overrating, we as fans overrate every exciting fighter, especially the KO artists, because we are fans first and analysts later. Sometimes a fighter surprises us by being greater than we thought he had in him. We underrated that fighter. I think fans tend to overrate a good deal more than underrate, however, because they are fans, and fall in love with fighters. When a young fighter looks good we get excited about it. Speed, power, chin and grace excite us and we get revved up with hopes for a great career to ride. Sometimes in our excitement we lose sight of the faults he may have.

We have all been wrong many times in our appraisal of particular fighters. Thirty-eight years ago I felt up and comer Monroe Brooks was headed for glory in the welterweight division. He was--by the name of Roberto Duran who was on his way up from lightweight. Brooks got mangled by a consensus all time great.

[IronDanHamza]

A boxer gets no ATG credit for what someone thinks they could have done if they were in shape. They only get credit for what they did, straight up, whether in shape or out. That is an end on it.

As for overrating, we as fans overrate every exciting fighter, especially the KO artists, because we are fans first and analysts later. Sometimes a fighter surprises us by being greater than we thought he had in him. We underrated that fighter. I think fans tend to overrate a good deal more than underrate, however, because they are fans, and fall in love with fighters. When a young fighter looks good we get excited about it. Speed, power, chin and grace excite us and we get revved up with hopes for a great career to ride. Sometimes in our excitement we lose sight of the faults he may have.

We have all been wrong many times in our appraisal of particular fighters. Thirty-eight years ago I felt up and comer Monroe Brooks was headed for glory in the welterweight division. He was--by the name of Roberto Duran who was on his way up from lightweight. Brooks got mangled by a consensus all time great.

Agreed.

But I even think "in shape" Toney is overrated too.

"In shape" Toney lost to Reggie Johnson IMO and often looked less than stellar.

[sonnyboyx2]

Nah. It's not about that at all.

Other than Tiberi and Thadzi (two clear loss's) how I scored the fights are irrelevant because they all could have gone either way. I just threw my personal view in there as its my thread.

I had Johnson and McCallum 2 scored for them, but can't complain with the result. But I also had Griffin 2 scored for Toney but can't complain with that result either.

The point I'm making is Toney never dominated an top level opponent in impressive fashion.

To say "he annihilated Iran Barkley therefore he's not overrated" is absurd to me. Nigel Benn knocked out Barkley in 1 round. Don't get me wrong Barkley was a good solid fighter but nothing to shout and scream about.

Toney-McCallum 1 I will state again is one of the best fights I've ever seen and the epitome of a "draw" as you'll ever see and Toney showed his skill level to compete with an ATG like McCallum like that across 2 fights but that doesn't mean he's not overrated either.

I feel he's overrated because we have a guy like Mike McCallum who's never talked about for the most part who has a better resume, more dominant, more dominant victories yet Toney is held in higher regard for some reason.

As for being dominated I thought Tiberi and Thdazi beat him pretty easily and clearly.

Dan, you like myself obviously rate McCallum up there with the very best. Yet Toney went toe-to-toe with him and showed a level of skill and ability on par with McCallum... Toney at Heavyweight is quite incredible. Rahman (twice) Peter (twice) Ruiz, Holyfield.. Toney more than held his own against those fighters. Evander Holyfield, i have watched every pro fight he has ever fought. Yet i have never seen him hit with over-hand rights like he was against James Toney. Holyfield was "Beaten Up" and he admitted he was "Lucky the fight was stopped otherwise he could have been badly beaten".. years past his best Holyfield was, but Toney gave him a bad beating. Holyfield fought on with his career, including two more World title fights. John Ruiz has fought the best in the division for 10yrs. Yet was hammered by James Toney. Hasim Rahman was also beaten twice. Yet Toney is a 5'10'' former 160lb champion... c'mon Dan, he is never overrated!
Toney called out Lewis, Tyson, Klitschko's and none fancied the job..

[nivek535]

i dont know **** about resumes, but his overall boxing and movement in the ring is undeniably amazing.....

[IronDanHamza]

Dan, you like myself obviously rate McCallum up there with the very best. Yet Toney went toe-to-toe with him and showed a level of skill and ability on par with McCallum... Toney at Heavyweight is quite incredible. Rahman (twice) Peter (twice) Ruiz, Holyfield.. Toney more than held his own against those fighters. Evander Holyfield, i have watched every pro fight he has ever fought. Yet i have never seen him hit with over-hand rights like he was against James Toney. Holyfield was "Beaten Up" and he admitted he was "Lucky the fight was stopped otherwise he could have been badly beaten".. years past his best Holyfield was, but Toney gave him a bad beating. Holyfield fought on with his career, including two more World title fights. John Ruiz has fought the best in the division for 10yrs. Yet was hammered by James Toney. Hasim Rahman was also beaten twice. Yet Toney is a 5'10'' former 160lb champion... c'mon Dan, he is never overrated!
Toney called out Lewis, Tyson, Klitschko's and none fancied the job..

He fought on par with McCallum yeah, on par. I had him drawing and losing.

Again another reason why I think he's overrated. McCallum is better than him IMO but you don't see that being said you see it said the other way around.

People also don't take his fights and performances with Tiberi, Thadzi, Johnson, Griffin, Sosa into account either. You say he held his own with the heavyweight contenders well all of the above more than held their own with Toney. Thadzi and Tiberi beat him clearly and they're fringe contenders at best. Why isn't that taken into account and a knock on him?

That should be focused on more than the fact he lost and drew with some heavyweight contenders.

[IronDanHamza]

i dont know **** about resumes, but his overall boxing and movement in the ring is undeniably amazing.....

I agree he looked amazing, at times. Keywords - "at times".

He also looked very poor at times aswell.

He's an inconsistent fighter IMO both inside and outside the ring.

I also don't agree with you that his movement is amazing. Whilst yes his upper body movement is impressive His footwork and general movement on the feet is not great IMO.