James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[robertzimmerman]

Seriously now why is it every single post I have to explain the most simple things?

I said he has a string of loss's/poor performances.

They include;

Tiberi, Thadzi, Griffin x2, Sosa, Johnson.

I won't include Jones or McCallum 2 because losing or not looking stellar against ATG's is no big deal.

"You say he has zero impressive performances against elite comp. Then why I point out that he beat them, it's "Okay, he did beat them, but he wasn't impressive"

Precisely. Which part of the above are you struggling to comprehend?

I'm not asking you to tell me who he beat I'm not asking you to tell me which of his wins are impressive I'm asking for dominant impressive performances.

I don't know how I can make this easier to understand seriously I don't.

Nunn despite the KO was not an impressive performance. Neither was McCallum 2. Neither were dominant/impressive performances.

He doesn't have a string of losses to subpar opposition.

Why were Johnson and Griffin poor performances?

What do you mean despite the KO?

He didn't just pull that out of a hat.

How could it not be impressive how he turned things around?

You are dismissing the Nunn and McCallum wins.

[robertzimmerman]

Modern era? Roy Jones, Evander Holyfield, erm, Manny Pacquaio. Top of my head I know I'm missing a few.

Toney? No.

Do I need a on repeat again that I don't think Nunn is a great fighter? No, I don't. Far from an ATG. Great potential, maybe.

I'm Roy's biggest fan, but I don't think he has wins as good as Toney's over Nunn and McCallum.

Their resumes are very close.

[robertzimmerman]

I don't care if he's in shape or not that's his own fault and I've been hearing the same excuses for 20 odd years. But run with it if you think that's the entire reason why he didn't reach certain heights. You're entitled to think that, I don't.

I've had back and forth with others just fine. It's you that offended that I don't feel the same way about Toney.

Right, so you're telling me that he lost to Griffin and Thadzi etc, not because of his weight issues etc, but just because they were better fighters than he was?

[IronDanHamza]

He doesn't have a string of losses to subpar opposition.

Why were Johnson and Griffin poor performances?

What do you mean despite the KO?

He didn't just pull that out of a hat.

How could it not be impressive how he turned things around?

You are dismissing the Nunn and McCallum wins.

Because he lost both IMO. He was defintely far from impressive in the Johnson fight or either Griffin fight.

I mean, despite turning it round, he wasn't impressive. He gets full credit for the win, but it wasn't an impressive performance. It's like I'm talking to a 6 year old child who's first language isn't English. Is your first language English?

I'll give you an example, Carl Froch-Jermain Tayor. Froch won by KO, turned it round impressively, but it wasn't an impressive performance.

Deontay Wilder-Arthur Szpilka, impressive KO, not an impressive performance?

Need more examples or have you grasped it?

At no point have I dismissed either win. Merely stated that neither are impressive performances or dominant performances. Literally all there is to my statment. Also that I don't feel Toney beat McCallum but gant argue with the result as it was an either way fight.

[IronDanHamza]

Right, so you're telling me that he lost to Griffin and Thadzi etc, not because of his weight issues etc, but just because they were better fighters than he was?

Styles making fights played a factor IMO and in the case of Griffin yeah it definitely played a part. Toney always struggled when the guy across from him had his own skills. Griffin showed just that.

Thadzi I believe he overlooked but Thadzi had a perfect gamelan on the night.

Being out of shape may have been an issue yeah but who knows they had thT excuse ready every single time.

[robertzimmerman]

I'll respond to you with sarcasm if you take the conversation that way and if you continue to refuse to read/understand my posts.

Yeah I have asked that question you've failed to answer it for the most part. All you've done is tell me the reason he looked poor and didn't dominate any of his opponents is because he wasn't In shape. Ok? That's fantastic.

Ok you think Nunn is a great fighter. I don't. I wouldn't expect to see Nunn on any ATG list.

I've said no such thing.

I've made no excuses for his MW performances, and neither has he. I've merely pointed out that he dropped decisions to guys like Thadzi, because he was never fully prepared at LHW and above. His weight was all over the place, which is why he went to CW in his 20's.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm Roy's biggest fan, but I don't think he has wins as good as Toney's over Nunn and McCallum.

Their resumes are very close.

Not even going to waste my time responding to the idea that James Toney and Roy Jones have careers or resumes that are anywhere near close to one another.

[robertzimmerman]

I do take them into account. I also take into account that Griffin had a style and his own batch of skills that gave Toney problems and allowed him to beat him the first time. I don't blame it all on him being out of shape like you and other Toney fans do. And even if it's the case it's his own fault anyway so who cares?

Holyfield did not beat Valuev easier than Haye did. That's just sheer nonsense. Holyfield beat Valuev but he lost rounds. Haye barely lost a round.

What do you mean who cares? We're supposed to be having an objective debate.

A shot Evander put in a much better performance than Haye.

[IronDanHamza]

What do you mean who cares? We're supposed to be having an objective debate.

A shot Evander put in a much better performance than Haye.

Because it's irrelevant. It's Toney's choice to decide to be out of shape.

You can repeat that nonsense about Haye/Holyfield/Valuev all you want it doesn't make it true.

[soul_survivor]

So Dan, I assume you must think that Jones was underrated and probably not a top 100 ATG, considering his two standout wins in the decade were Hopkins (green) and Toney (in your opinion overrated. His second best wins are probably Griffin (struggled in the first fight but got the impressive KO in the rematch) and McCullum...Toney drew against a far better, stronger, closer to best weight version of Mc. Jones had a sparring match at times.