How fast was Sugar Ray Robinson in 1950? Find out here.

[The plunger man]

I have not given an opinion on Robinson, I gave a response to two of his contests you commented on.

Yes you are ignorant, you have made statements of belief which you have arrived at after reading one source and given zero further thought to subject.



No do not take my word, but go investigate what you are talking about. You do not have enough information to even form an opinion but that is what you have done and then tried to pass it off as knowledge.

Again I never made any comment on Robinson's ability, only two contests.



It was in your dad's book.



No it was for a single year. How can you comment on Bell as a fighter or his career, or his losses if you do not have any concept of his level when he was active?



You don't care because you don't know enough about what you are talking about, you've invested zero time in learning facts - so happy to stay with your perception of events.



Neither has nothing to do with the subject - unless you were there to watch those contests?

You have the same information on hand as what I do lol
...there is no recorded film evidence of robinson as a welterweight..and yet you seem to know it all...only word of mouth from your grandad just how good he was ...news for you son its called Chinese whispers and what starts as a good fighter they end up as superman....from the old timers you hear from them everything was better , take Bert Randolph sugar Roberto Duran was the only fighter ever to make his list of all top 10 fighters other than that....it was all 20,30,40s biased bull****.....my opinion was not written to you it was written to some one else who I had a decent conversation with ....you on the other hand know nothing

[The plunger man]

A bum ????? OK that's it, you have proved yourself a troll and are here just to stir up faeces. I am now asking the moderators, can you PLEASE ban this troll, this place deserves better.

Hello m8 how you doing ....you can't ask for someone to be banned on this site....everybody has different views....it's called freedom of speech....the easiest way to deal with someone like that is don't debate with them ...and that fixes the whole issue....it's like me I explained my opinions on robinson that I don't consider robinson as the greatest fighter that ever lived and now I'm ignorant for my opinions even though I explained why......live and let live I say

[Elroy1]

A bum ????? OK that's it, you have proved yourself a troll and are here just to stir up faeces. I am now asking the moderators, can you PLEASE ban this troll, this place deserves better.

Your right about one thing. This place deserves better than the closed world view that you promote.

Robinson was slow by the now standards. He had a shocking defence. He struggled with garbage opponents.

I didn't make these facts, they are irrefutable proofs that just are, it's not even opinion.

[joeandthebums]

You have the same information on hand as what I do lol

An assumption which is wrong.

...there is no recorded film evidence of robinson as a welterweight..

Wrong again.

and yet you seem to know it all...only word of mouth from your grandad just how good he was ...

... ?

news for you son its called Chinese whispers and what starts as a good fighter they end up as superman....from the old timers you hear from them everything was better , take Bert Randolph sugar Roberto Duran was the only fighter ever to make his list of all top 10 fighters other than that....it was all 20,30,40s biased bull****.....my opinion was not written to you it was written to some one else who I had a decent conversation with ....

Well that went off on a tangent... none of which is on point.

Once again, I have not mentioned once the ability of Robinson as a fighter or his stature, you have placed that upon me.

I am challenging your opinion on two contest which Robinson competed in.

you on the other hand know nothing

Then educate me.

[Weltschmerz]

That doesn't show much, other than some Dutch guy with a poor chin and stamina.

[McGoorty]

Your right about one thing. This place deserves better than the closed world view that you promote.

Robinson was slow by the now standards. He had a shocking defence. He struggled with garbage opponents.

I didn't make these facts, they are irrefutable proofs that just are, it's not even opinion.

only irrefutable fact here is that you are nuts

[McGoorty]

Hello m8 how you doing ....you can't ask for someone to be banned on this site....everybody has different views....it's called freedom of speech....the easiest way to deal with someone like that is don't debate with them ...and that fixes the whole issue....it's like me I explained my opinions on robinson that I don't consider robinson as the greatest fighter that ever lived and now I'm ignorant for my opinions even though I explained why......live and let live I say

you said you didn't think robinson was the greatest, a long way from that idiot calling him a bum which proves the tool is a troll

[The plunger man]

An assumption which is wrong.



Wrong again.



... ?



Well that went off on a tangent... none of which is on point.

Once again, I have not mentioned once the ability of Robinson as a fighter or his stature, you have placed that upon me.

I am challenging your opinion on two contest which Robinson competed in.



Then educate me.

As I said its on boxing recs as well as an old ring encyclopaedia....States robinson lost the first five rounds against bell and was knocked down for a seven count as well...lost the 10,12,13,14 as well do the maths man lol....as for brimm robinson was lucky to get the draw and again it states it on box recs go read it its in black and white lol.....brimm lost 19 of 48 fights plus 3 draws ...so really is that a poor journey mans record on not ? So again I will ask you did Robinson either lose or struggles with poor fighters or not ? ...so you have video evidence of Robinson as a welter ? Becaue if you do send me the video link.....did maxim have to contend with the heat just the same as Robinson or not....you can't argue with the facts which is on boxrecs .....basically Robinson was dropped many times against lesser foes and there all on boxrecs.....jose basora and georgie Abrams can also be added to that list of lucky escapes for Robinson .....Robinson was brilliant but he is not the greatest fighter ever to set foot in the ring.....so I say to you prove me wrong where bell and brimm are concerned and prove to me that there far better than there records indicate because what I see they were mediocre fighters who should or could easily have been given the decision over Robinson ..

[joeandthebums]

As I said its on boxing recs as well as an old ring encyclopaedia....States robinson lost the first five rounds against bell and was knocked down for a seven count as well...lost the 10,12,13,14 as well do the maths man lol....

That is incredibly lazy and poor reading on your part.

Cannon article states "The first five rounds were hard ones for Robinson" - that does not say that Bell took all of those rounds as one would learn if they took time to read the accounts or at least skimmed the scorecards.

For example, after six rounds the United Press scorecard had it 3-2-1 to Bell.

The overall scoring for the contest was;

Referee: Eddie Joseph 10-5
Judge: Arthur Schwartz 10-5
Judge: Jack O'Sullivan 8-6
Unofficial United Press scorecard: 10-4-1
Unofficial Associated Press scorecard: 8-5-2

Like you said, do the maths.

as for brimm robinson was lucky to get the draw and again it states it on box recs go read it its in black and white lol....

If boxrec is your sole source then you need to expand.

"Robinson cut loose with both barrels in the later rounds but Brimm came back with a terrific finish. Judge Willie DeJames gave Robinson a 5-4-1 edge, Referee Fred Stanton and Judge Fred Hegnauer scored it even-Stephen in rounds but Stanton voted for Brimm on points 7-6 according to the Deseret News."

No mention of lucky. Sounds like it was scored a draw.

brimm lost 19 of 48 fights plus 3 draws ...so really is that a poor journey mans record on not ?

I would place Brimm as a gatekeeper, fighters that beat him usually were going upper tier fighters.

So again I will ask you did Robinson either lose or struggles with poor fighters or not ?

You didn't ask that previously - of course Robinson performed sub-standard on more than one occasion, I have never disputed that.

But in the same vein in which you do not place him on a special pedestal, neither do I - Robinson was not invincible, he could be beaten.

When he was taken close or fought a draw it does not necessarily mean he performed sub-standard in that particular contest - the opponent may have been the right type to counter his style.

...so you have video evidence of Robinson as a welter ? Becaue if you do send me the video link.....

1946 - Tony Riccio
1946 - Cliff Beckett
1946 - Sammy Angott III
1946 - Freddie Flores
1948 - Bernard Docusen

did maxim have to contend with the heat just the same as Robinson or not....

Yes Maxim did have to experience the same conditions as Robinson.

you can't argue with the facts which is on boxrecs .....

Boxrec written word is gospel? Can you tell me who Robinson's 7th professional opponent was then please.

--

I appreciate your responses as it has allowed me to see at least how you have drawn your conclusions.

You don't seem to have a particular agenda but just a lack of information to form an overall opinion.

[The plunger man]

That is incredibly lazy and poor reading on your part.

Cannon article states "The first five rounds were hard ones for Robinson" - that does not say that Bell took all of those rounds as one would learn if they took time to read the accounts or at least skimmed the scorecards.

For example, after six rounds the United Press scorecard had it 3-2-1 to Bell.

The overall scoring for the contest was;

Referee: Eddie Joseph 10-5
Judge: Arthur Schwartz 10-5
Judge: Jack O'Sullivan 8-6
Unofficial United Press scorecard: 10-4-1
Unofficial Associated Press scorecard: 8-5-2

Like you said, do the maths.




If boxrec is your sole source then you need to expand.

"Robinson cut loose with both barrels in the later rounds but Brimm came back with a terrific finish. Judge Willie DeJames gave Robinson a 5-4-1 edge, Referee Fred Stanton and Judge Fred Hegnauer scored it even-Stephen in rounds but Stanton voted for Brimm on points 7-6 according to the Deseret News."

No mention of lucky. Sounds like it was scored a draw.




I would place Brimm as a gatekeeper, fighters that beat him usually were going upper tier fighters.



You didn't ask that previously - of course Robinson performed sub-standard on more than one occasion, I have never disputed that.

But in the same vein in which you do not place him on a special pedestal, neither do I - Robinson was not invincible, he could be beaten.

When he was taken close or fought a draw it does not necessarily mean he performed sub-standard in that particular contest - the opponent may have been the right type to counter his style.



1946 - Tony Riccio
1946 - Cliff Beckett
1946 - Sammy Angott III
1946 - Freddie Flores
1948 - Bernard Docusen



Yes Maxim did have to experience the same conditions as Robinson.



Boxrec written word is gospel? Can you tell me who Robinson's 7th professional opponent was then please.

--

I appreciate your responses as it has allowed me to see at least how you have drawn your conclusions.

You don't seem to have a particular agenda but just a lack of information to form an overall opinion.

I don't have an agenda....I think Robinson was overrated in regards to the old timers saying he is the best fighter that ever lived....it's wrong in my eyes and that's that...I have seen loads of Robinson fights from graziiano, galento, maxim, lamotta and four or five more...as I said Robinson lost or drew or struggled with mediocre or lesser skilled fighters more than 1 time......brimm losing 19 fights out of 48 is 100 percent fact that he was not a world class fighter whether you prefer calling him a gatekeeper to a journey man is your call and Robinson drew with him and bell as I said pushed Robinson all the way and that's always been my argument.....there are fight films of Robinson where he looks terrible....bad defence, wild, lazy jab ,tagged constantly and I'm sorry in my opinion. he is not the most skilled I have ever seen...I boxed all my life and when I see Robinson I see many flaws and just don't consider him the most skilled fighter ever....in his era he was unique and amazing ....I rate Willis pep and Joe Louis above him for that era though ...skill for skill sugar ray leonard was a more skilled fighter than Robinson ....I don't live in a world where Bert Randolph sugar insists on the old school fighters being superior to say 70' and 80 fighters...sorry to burst your bubble but sport and boxers reached a peak 25 years and now it's plateaued .....go watch jack Johnson or jack Dempsey to see just how wild and crude they were as heavyweights and yet the old timers insist they could have beaten a Larry Holmes or a Lennox Lewis ......never in a million years and it's the same if Robiinson came up against a hagler or ray Leonard ...evolution ....bigger stronger faster ....every other sport can be proven things improve boxing can't because there are no lap timers or clocks to prove its superior...all I use is my eyes and see what I see......do I know ray robin sons 7th pro fight no I don't without looking at the internet but can you tell Ray Leonard's 4 pro fight ....the initial discussion was always Sugar ray Robinson lost or struggled with mediocre fighters and that's proven.....did I say Robinson was legend for his era yea I did...I can't say no more than that ....we can't really take this any further can we