Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter

[butterfly1964]

the best ali youll probably ever see was the ali from liston 1 to folley. no hw ever could touch him at that point...that being said, Ali the night of the rumble beats any hw in history as well

i don't think he could beat liston.

[K-DOGG]

i don't think he could beat liston.

Got to disagree with you, bro. Ali was in shape to dance the night he fought Foreman; but due to the size of the ring, the thickness of the padding, and George's underestimated skill at cutting the ring off, he made a concsious decision to go the ropes and the Rope-a-Dope was born. Ali's mentality alone is enough to guarantee a victory over Liston. Sonny was awesome, it's true; but he didn't have the mental toughness or will to have beaten Ali the night he fought George. That Ali was a mature, and very hungry/determined man. He did what he had to do to beat Foreman and if a 22 year old kid could beat Liston, a 32 year old Man could.

Least that's my take.

[butterfly1964]

Got to disagree with you, bro. Ali was in shape to dance the night he fought Foreman; but due to the size of the ring, the thickness of the padding, and George's underestimated skill at cutting the ring off, he made a concsious decision to go the ropes and the Rope-a-Dope was born. Ali's mentality alone is enough to guarantee a victory over Liston. Sonny was awesome, it's true; but he didn't have the mental toughness or will to have beaten Ali the night he fought George. That Ali was a mature, and very hungry/determined man. He did what he had to do to beat Foreman and if a 22 year old kid could beat Liston, a 32 year old Man could.

Least that's my take.

nah, ali wasn't as fast as he was when he fought liston, and the big bear would have caught up with him. plus remember clay didn't fight prime sonny liston.

[K-DOGG]

nah, ali wasn't as fast as he was when he fought liston, and the big bear would have caught up with him. plus remember clay didn't fight prime sonny liston.

Oh, I know; but even though Ali wasn't as fleet of foot, he still had the handspeed. Not to mention he was setting down on his punches more by then, and had mastered muscling a guy around in the clinch. Ali was a lot stronger than most people believe, and he was, by age 32, a true heavweight...and bigger than Liston.

Ali-Liston (32 vs prime Liston) would have looked considerably different than Clay-Liston in '64; but Ali still wins by TKO, IMO. Also, remember, Ali had a granite jaw and was never knocked out by anyone; not Liston, not Frazier, not Foreman, not Lyle, not Shavers...when he couldn't get away. No way Liston stops 32 year old Ali...and he isn't going to outbox him over 15 rounds, either. Sorry, I just can't see it.

The Ali that fought Norton, maybe; but not the Rumble Ali....and not eve the Thrilla Ali, IMHO.

[butterfly1964]

Oh, I know; but even though Ali wasn't as fleet of foot, he still had the handspeed. Not to mention he was setting down on his punches more by then, and had mastered muscling a guy around in the clinch. Ali was a lot stronger than most people believe, and he was, by age 32, a true heavweight...and bigger than Liston.

Ali-Liston (32 vs prime Liston) would have looked considerably different than Clay-Liston in '64; but Ali still wins by TKO, IMO.

sonny liston is not george foreman. sonny wouldn't punch himself out like foreman did. liston was a skilled boxer-puncher. he would methodically beat ali down and stop him late.

[K-DOGG]

sonny liston is not george foreman. sonny wouldn't punch himself out like foreman did. liston was a skilled boxer-puncher. he would methodically beat ali down and stop him late.

No one ever stopped Ali and an old 35 year old Ali took Earnie Shavers's best for 15. No. Liston was skilled, it's true; but a 32 year old Ali wasn't "over the hill" and had a cast Iron Jaw. No, Lison would not have punched himself out...he wouldn't have to, Ali wouldn't have needed him to. Ali wasn't a bad "boxer/counterpuncher" himself.

And, a 32 year old Ali was better then Machen, Williams, or Patterson. Liston was a good boxer; but got by mainly on intimidation ala Mike Tyson. Ali would not have been intimidated and would have found a way to win primarily because he was a smarter fighter and more versatile than Lison could ever hope to be. Liston was a one-trick pony. He was skilled; but had one way of going after you; Ali, on the other hand, had a number of ways he could beat you. With Liston coming at an Ali who had become more accustomed to fighting flat-footed and counterpunching, and who had grown into his 6'3" frame....no. Liston would lose by TKO somewhere around the 10th or 11th.

[K-DOGG]

Gotta go. I'll catch ya tomorrow, if you want.

Peace bro.

[butterfly1964]

No one ever stopped Ali and an old 35 year old Ali took Earnie Shavers's best for 15. No. Liston was skilled, it's true; but a 32 year old Ali wasn't "over the hill" and had a cast Iron Jaw. No, Lison would not have punched himself out...he wouldn't have to, Ali wouldn't have needed him to. Ali wasn't a bad "boxer/counterpuncher" himself.

And, a 32 year old Ali was better then Machen, Williams, or Patterson. Liston was a good boxer; but got by mainly on intimidation ala Mike Tyson. Ali would not have been intimidated and would have found a way to win primarily because he was a smarter fighter and more versatile than Lison could ever hope to be. Liston was a one-trick pony. He was skilled; but had one way of going after you; Ali, on the other hand, had a number of ways he could beat you. With Liston coming at an Ali who had become more accustomed to fighting flat-footed and counterpunching, and who had grown into his 6'3" frame....no. Liston would lose by TKO somewhere around the 10th or 11th.

shavers is unskilled and liston would hit ali alot more than shavers did. liston would eventually stop ali in the tenth.

[K-DOGG]

shavers is unskilled and liston would hit ali alot more than shavers did. liston would eventually stop ali in the tenth.

Ahh, my friend; but a 32 year old Ali was not the same animal as a 35 year old Ali.

I'm gone for real, now. Catch ya later.

[SuzieQ49]

a 30 year old ali was getting his ears boxed off by a 37 year old patterson until the fight had to be stopped on cuts.

" I thought patterson would be finished in two rounds. but he was in superb condition. If I'd listened to the press, he would have given me a worse lickin in the first five rounds."- muhammad ali on 2nd floyd patterson fight in 1972


- a peak 1958 liston was a FORCE, he was a lot faster, better movment, better defense. a peak sonny liston knocks out a 70s ali who is overated in fantasy matchups.

- the 1960s ali was special, the 1970s ali accomplished alot, but he does not match up well head to head. his reflexes and speed was gone. liston would have no trouble boxing with ali, and liston was a greater puncher than foreman.


look what ron lyle did to muhammad ali for 11 rounds, lyle was a poor mans sonny liston.