Is Muhammad Ali the #1 Heavyweight of all time?

[billeau2]

No.

Wladimir Klitschko is the greatest heavyweight of all time.

I thought Vitali was the object of your affections....you two timer!!!!

[greeh]

It kind of pains me to say this… But Ali should be rated #1. He never displayed the beautiful destructiveness by picture-perfect punching or reigned as long as Joe did, but the fact that he sits on the best resume in the division’s history is the sole reason for me putting him at the top.

If it was based on preference I would choose Joe’s technical soundness over Ali’s reliance on athleticism and physical gifts every day of the week, but taking resume into account I simply don’t think that it’s possible to rank Joe above Ali.

By the way, putting too much stock in H2H potential should never be done when discussing greatness. Even less use it as a tiebreaker. Not in my opinion at least.

Just my two cents though…

[greeh]

I was trying to respond to this yesterday, could not format what I wanted to do so, here we go: Here is how I see Ray's point,

Lets take Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather, two great fighters but two fighters who are diametrically opposed.

Jones is athletic, has incredible speed, does crazy things like leave his hands down, lead in with hooks, leap in, slouch, etc

Mayweather has textbook technique. he never slouches, punches straight as an arrow, never telegraphs, Floyd always has his hand and feet in position to counter, pivot, or move....no leaping ever necessary.

The analogy extends to Louis and Ali. ali was very much like Jones and Mayweather has the technical proficiency of Louis.

Ali is considered the greatest because of factors outside the ring. Does this kind if make sense to you?

Yeah, Mayweather have never had any athletic ability whatsoever and has always been a rigid textbook technician, eh?

He has never showcased immense speed, slapped with his hook or pulled straight back from punches with his chin up in the air with his hands dangling by his waist?

Sure...

How about to stop denying that Mayweather possessed top-notch physical gifts? He has very good fundamentals and knows how to punch correctly, but his athletic ability allows him to improvise and doing things in an unorthodox manner when he felt for it or when necessary.

You make it sound like he’s in the same vein of almost confined textbook rigidity as Ricardo Lopez or Harold Johnson, which is not the case.

Your comparison with him and Joe Louis, THE consummate puncher, is way off and not even remotely close to be accurate. I’ve would have understood it better if you had chose Donald Curry. He had the same motionless, non-telegraphed textbook-oriented offense as Joe Louis and never strayed away from it. They were always loyal to that approach, even if they maybe would have benefitted of being a bit more reckless and less technically sound at times.

And soul_survivor: drop Ali’s balls out of your mouth. He isn’t better than Louis in every category.

Your fanboyism doesn't need to be put into overdrive since everyone already have acknowledged how great Ali was and clearly gives him his due.

Even I have done that…

[BKM-2010]

Again, I don't see how people discredit either technical skills or physical gifts. Neither is better because they both get the job done depending on the fighters.

[greeh]

Again, I don't see how people discredit either technical skills or physical gifts. Neither is better because they both get the job done depending on the fighters.

I agree with you. Although I prefer technical fighters, I can still appreciate unorthodox fighters as Sung-Kil Moon, even if I am not the biggest fan of it.

My post wasn't intended to discredit Mayweather, but the way some says he has never had any spectacular physical tools just bothers me plain and simple – because it’s a lie.

What’s the point of denying that? Why would anyone dispute that he is/was very athletically gifted? He has the fundamentals that Roy Jones never had, but that doesn’t mean he is about as physically impressive as Myung-Woo Yuh or Ayub Kalule. His excellent athletic ability meant he could improvise and take risks in a manner that weren’t by the-book-perfect. I am not knocking on Mayweather; just on those who proclaim he has always been and will always be textbook-perfect without any bits of unorthodoxy sprinkled into his work and no impressive physical gifts whatsoever.

He is an excellent fighter, but the hyperbole he receives from some posters isn't really necessary

[billeau2]

Yeah, Mayweather have never had any athletic ability whatsoever and has always been a rigid textbook technician, eh?

He has never showcased immense speed, slapped with his hook or pulled straight back from punches with his chin up in the air with his hands dangling by his waist?

Sure...

How about to stop denying that Mayweather possessed top-notch physical gifts? He has very good fundamentals and knows how to punch correctly, but his athletic ability allows him to improvise and doing things in an unorthodox manner when he felt for it or when necessary.

You make it sound like he***8217;s in the same vein of almost confined textbook rigidity as Ricardo Lopez or Harold Johnson, which is not the case.

Your comparison with him and Joe Louis, THE consummate puncher, is way off and not even remotely close to be accurate. I***8217;ve would have understood it better if you had chose Donald Curry. He had the same motionless, non-telegraphed textbook-oriented offense as Joe Louis and never strayed away from it. They were always loyal to that approach, even if they maybe would have benefitted of being a bit more reckless and less technically sound at times.

And soul_survivor: drop Ali***8217;s balls out of your mouth. He isn***8217;t better than Louis in every category.

Your fanboyism doesn't need to be put into overdrive since everyone already have acknowledged how great Ali was and clearly gives him his due.

Even I have done that***8230;

Ill never forget the time I realized how technically proficient Mayweather was. There was a slo mo of him countering a guy. You could see in perfect detail his face, when he became aware of the motion (peripheral vision), his subsequent shoulder rotation, how close he was to getting nailed, and the the eventual counter.

Don't be a snob. Opinions are opinions and your opinion regarding Curry as compared to Louis is just that. Mayweather is a consumate technician and that is a fact....Maybe he does compensate with athletic ability more or less....But the FACT is in the tapes which anyone can view...including you.

Looking at your last post (edit): Heres a simple question: Does Mayweather's greatness lay in his physical ability or his technical ability? Thats my point, not that Mayweather is not physically gifted. I mean look at the Judah fight, Zab's speed was, intially a problem for Mayweather yes? How did Mayweather deal with it? did he speed on up? or did he adjust his angles, timing and punch selection? its right there on tape.

[greeh]

Ill never forget the time I realized how technically proficient Mayweather was.

OK. Good for you, I guess.

There was a slo mo of him countering a guy. You could see in perfect detail his face, when he became aware of the motion (peripheral vision), his subsequent shoulder rotation, how close he was to getting nailed, and the the eventual counter.

There are plenty of other slow-motion replays that showcase other fighters countering.

So… Your point was?

Don't be a snob.

Oh, the irony…

I never thought I would hear that from the most self-righteous prick on this section.

Opinions are opinions and your opinion regarding Curry as compared to Louis is just that.

Exactly as your Mayweather – Louis.

Doesn’t the Curry comparison seem to be more fitting though? Fanboy antics aside, didn’t they have the same strict textbook box-punching approach?

Yes they did.

Does Mayweather remind of them in that regard?

No he doesn’t.

Many things could be said about Curry, but his offensive skills were impeccable – an offensive arsenal of the absolute highest order.

Mayweather is a consumate technician and that is a fact....Maybe he does compensate with athletic ability more or less....But the FACT is in the tapes which anyone can view...including you.

I’ve seen Mayweather’s fights.

Why don’t you instead watch some tapes of Curry to realize he’s a better comparison to Louis than Mayweather?

Heres a simple question: Does Mayweather's greatness lay in his physical ability or his technical ability?

I have never questioned Mayweather’s technical competence. Try something else. The thing I have denied is your steady rants about Mayweather not having excellent athletic ability.

He could fight more loosely and in a more unorthodox manner, because thanks to his athleticism he could improvise on top of his technical ability. That’s a fact.

Thats my point, not that Mayweather is not physically gifted.

I can’t believe it took you so long to admit it. By the way, what was your point?

I mean look at the Judah fight.

Judah was ****. Crisanto Espana would have ripped him a new one.

Zab's speed was, intially a problem for Mayweather yes? How did Mayweather deal with it? did he speed on up? or did he adjust his angles, timing and punch selection? its right there on tape.

I haven’t said he outspeeded Judah.

There are harder things to do than shift the momentum of the fight against Zab. Give it a couple of rounds and he fades like usual. He doesn’t exactly fight his ass off to the final bell.

Zab has never been anything special in my opinion. He has never warranted the hype or praise that’s he has gotten over the years.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

It kind of pains me to say this… But Ali should be rated #1. He never displayed the beautiful destructiveness by picture-perfect punching or reigned as long as Joe did, but the fact that he sits on the best resume in the division’s history is the sole reason for me putting him at the top.

If it was based on preference I would choose Joe’s technical soundness over Ali’s reliance on athleticism and physical gifts every day of the week, but taking resume into account I simply don’t think that it’s possible to rank Joe above Ali.

By the way, putting too much stock in H2H potential should never be done when discussing greatness. Even less use it as a tiebreaker. Not in my opinion at least.

Just my two cents though…

I disagree kinda,, maybe H2H isnt the best way if the guys are from different eras and never fought, but i do put H2H as a good form of criteria when discussing 2 fighters that actually fought in their prime against one another.. Obviously it doesnt help if its tyson-holmes, or something like that when one guy is faded, then no it shouldnt be used, but if its something like hopkins-roy or toney-mccallum, then i think its a very applicable measure when ranking guys... Cant be used for any scenario, but certain ones i find it useful
Resumes dont win you fights, its skill level..

[billeau2]

OK. Good for you, I guess.


There are plenty of other slow-motion replays that showcase other fighters countering.

So… Your point was?

the slo mo demonstrated how good he was to be able to set the counter up and how precise the margin for error was during the counter...this takes a tremendous amount of skill.




Oh, the irony…

I never thought I would hear that from the most self-righteous prick on this section.

Well.....YOU DID!!


Exactly as your Mayweather – Louis.

Doesn’t the Curry comparison seem to be more fitting though? Fanboy antics aside, didn’t they have the same strict textbook box-punching approach?

Yes they did.

Does Mayweather remind of them in that regard?

No he doesn’t.

Many things could be said about Curry, but his offensive skills were impeccable – an offensive arsenal of the absolute highest order.

Im not particularly partial to Floyd...But credit where Credit is due. My point about Louis was very general....your sacred cow is safe

I’ve seen Mayweather’s fights.

Why don’t you instead watch some tapes of Curry to realize he’s a better comparison to Louis than Mayweather?

[COLOR="Blue"]Because for the sake of my comparison....vis a vis technical skill on the higher order of a certain calibre, its just not relevant. I will take a look because I like to learn about fighers but its another issue entirelyCOLOR]


I have never questioned Mayweather’s technical competence. Try something else. The thing I have denied is your steady rants about Mayweather not having excellent athletic ability.

I think his athletic ability is overrated...LIVE WITH IT! Your rants into obscurity are fun....but we all have our rants no wat I meen sport?

He could fight more loosely and in a more unorthodox manner, because thanks to his athleticism he could improvise on top of his technical ability. That’s a fact.
You equate improv with the opposite of technical proficiency why is that? nd while mayweather is relaxed he is by no means "loose." whats damatta with ju?


I can’t believe it took you so long to admit it. By the way, what was your point?

I was contrasting fighters with impeccable technical skills versus impeccable athletic abilities to contrast Ali versus Louis


Judah was ****. Crisanto Espana would have ripped him a new one.

another rant into abscurity here here!!! I like the rants and I am sure you are right....Judah was **** just had a lot of natural ability and speed


I haven’t said he outspeeded Judah.

There are harder things to do than shift the momentum of the fight against Zab. Give it a couple of rounds and he fades like usual. He doesn’t exactly fight his ass off to the final bell.

Zab has never been anything special in my opinion. He has never warranted the hype or praise that’s he has gotten over the years.

I agree....again he has natural talent and little else

[Diplomat]

I would say so. I used to sit and watch his fights on TV with my dad when I was growing up.