'Lennox Lewis is not an ATG' IronDanHamza

[Anthony342]

So if Bert Sugar is considered biased and so many people disagree with his ratings, then who is it that IS well respected among fans and historians alike. Al Bernstein? Some journalist from the past who is no longer with us but might've written a book or two or articles on boxing? Whose the guy out there now or from the past whose opinions make more sense and who is the consensus expert out there with opinions that make more sense. Besides HHascup or a few others that post here, of course? And should I buy copies of that person's boxing books?

[Nagabilly]

To be fair, I did give LaMotta credit for the Robinson, Williams and Zivic wins.

As I said, Cerdan was a one-armed fighter from the second round on. I actually think Cerdan could've beaten LaMotta if that hadn't have happened.

As for the other wins you just mentioned, LaMotta was about 15 seconds away from losing to Dauthuille for a second time. Yeah, you gotta give him props for pulling it out of the bag, but you'd expect an ATG to beat a fringe contender like Dauthuille. Same goes for Yarosz and Satterfiel wins - nothing more than you would've expected.

Gotta give him props for beating Janiro and Mitri though. Very solid wins.



I suppose that does make sense, but the way I see it is like this - if they had've been that closely matched LaMotta would've won at least one more of the fights. He only managed to take one to a split decision. Of course, it's hard for me to judge, as the last fight was the only one ever captured on film, so it's hard for anyone to really say or give a proper opinion on the series unless they attended all the fights.

By the way, I hope you don't think I'm rubbishing LaMotta's career/record and saying that he wasn't a good fighter. Not at all. I've never said that he's definitely not an ATG either. I just don't think he's as good as he's made out to be.

Didn't Lamotta knock down Ray a few times in the saga? Plus Sattersfield was a heavyweight, I believe

[Suckmedry]

Going to run with the last couple of posts and go off thread topic here...

Jake LaMotta is often mentioned in people's lists of their all-time greats. His record of 83-19 (30 KOs) isn't particularly impressive. IMO, it's made even less impressive when you look at his big wins...

- Sugar Ray Robinson (who beat him 5 times)
- Fritzie Zivic x3 (fair enough, good wins)
- Holmann Williams (another good win)
- Marcel Cerdan (Cerdan had a dislocated shoulder from the first round)

I don't even think the Cerdan win was credible either, due to Jake overdoing it with the roughhouse tactics in the opening round.

For someone that fought in such a way as LaMotta did, his KO% is also surprisingly low.

Another thing is that only held the World title once, and I think that was only for a couple of years.

This makes me genuinely wonder if he's as good as people say. Is he in these lists because of the Sugar Ray win alone? A fighter is allowed an off-night and Robinson proved that to be true by beating LaMotta over and over again to certify that is exactly what he had in their second fight.

I'd be interesting to hear others' opinions on this.

LaMotta fought in a tough era full of good fighters who never even got near the title, so the fact he held it shows he was at the least a good quality fighter. And even not discussing his other wins, the fact he holds one over a prime Ray Robinson is HUGE. Ray was one of the most complete if not the most complete boxer ever and yeah guys do have off nights but the fact is LaMotta beat him on that one and that is what cements LaMotta an an ATG. Just my opinion.

[Bolo Punch]

Didn't Lamotta knock down Ray a few times in the saga? Plus Sattersfield was a heavyweight, I believe

I think I'm right in saying he knocked Ray down once in the second fight. In fact, it's just hit me that it could've been the deciding factor in the bout, as Jake won by a SD. Maybe I'm wrong though. Just a guess.

Jake's fight with Satterfield came at the start of Bob's career, so I assume he was lighter back then.

[Bolo Punch]

I think I'm right in saying he knocked Ray down once in the second fight. In fact, it's just hit me that it could've been the deciding factor in the bout, as Jake won by a SD. Maybe I'm wrong though. Just as guess.

Jake's fight with Satterfield came at the start of Bob's career, so I assume he was lighter back then.

When I asked for people's thoughts on LaMotta, my train of thought was along the lines of: "how great?", rather than, "is he great?". A great fighter, no doubt. I'm just not sure how highly I'd have him rated.

Thanks to everyone who has given their opinion. It's always good to see where other people are coming from when judging a fighter.

[IronDanHamza]

To be fair, I did give LaMotta credit for the Robinson, Williams and Zivic wins.

As I said, Cerdan was a one-armed fighter from the second round on. I actually think Cerdan could've beaten LaMotta if that hadn't have happened.

As for the other wins you just mentioned, LaMotta was about 15 seconds away from losing to Dauthuille for a second time. Yeah, you gotta give him props for pulling it out of the bag, but you'd expect an ATG to beat a fringe contender like Dauthuille. Same goes for Yarosz and Satterfield wins - nothing more than you would've expected.

Gotta give him props for beating Janiro and Mitri though. Very solid wins.

I know you gave him credit for those wins. I was just adding other solid wins over top contenders he had. All in all, it's an impressive string of wins against ATG opposition.

Might not have been Cerdan at 100%, well, no might about it, but he still beat him. Cerdan opted to continue like a warrior and he lost the fight.

I don't see the relevance in that. Yeah, he was losing the fight and Dauthuille was a tricky costumer at times too. And he beat him anyway, he knocked him out. The fact he was losing is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

You'd expect him to win all those fights but they're still solid wins over good, top ranked opposition.

Similar to the thread in question, Lennox Lewis. His best win, Evander Holyfield. Certainly a good win, but you'd expect a prime Lewis to beat that version of Holyfield. Along with quite a few of his solid wins.

I suppose that does make sense, but the way I see it is like this - if they had've been that closely matched LaMotta would've won at least one more of the fights. He only managed to take one to a split decision. Of course, it's hard for me to judge, as the last fight was the only one ever captured on film, so it's hard for anyone to really say or give a proper opinion on the series unless they attended all the fights.

By the way, I hope you don't think I'm rubbishing LaMotta's career/record and saying that he wasn't a good fighter. Not at all. I've never said that he's definitely not an ATG either. I just don't think he's as good as he's made out to be.

Not necessarily. It's well documented they were all close and competitive fights. Robinson just got a nod in all of them.

And that's fair enough.

I don't think Lamotta is ranked that overly high though on most ATG lists.

He is an ATG, though. I think that's quite difficult to argue against.

[Mugwump]

The consensus about Lewis shifts like sand dunes in the desert on this board. One month he's "overrated", "boring", cursed with a "glass jaw" - the next he's top 5 ATG heavy (or better).

I have little interest or enthusiasm in P4P lists whose entry criteria invariably Reductio ad absurdum.

On the other hand I do think Lewis has a more than credible claim to be considered one of the finest heavies we've seen certainly since the war.

Sure, his resume doesn't stack up against, say, Ali's. But Ali was fighting in probably the finest, most competitive heavyweight division in history. If we ignore that period (as the highest and lowest values are often discounted in statistical analysis) I think Lewis's gets a lot of plus points for fighting and winning in a tough division. Hell, I'd give my eye teeth to see a similarly competitive heavyweight scene today.

I do think there's an argument to say he underachieved. Certainly Manny Steward seemed to think so. But it strikes me that we're setting the bar awfully high if we're labeling a three time world title holder who dominated the heavies for years "needlessly conservative".

I agree with Manny. He had all the tools to give any heavy (including Ali) a torrid time. A Lewis uppercut had the beauty and intentions of a killer whale bursting to the surface of the ocean. And that right cross was similarly leviathan.

I think the "glass jaw" label is just facile. If there was any truth to it he would have been starched silly by Briggs, Bruno, Tua, Grant, Golota, Ruddock, etc. (all of whom could ****). The real truth is tied up with the one facet of his fighting which is open to criticism - focus. Lewis could switch off. He could switch off in training. He could switch off in the fight. He didn't pay McCall and Rahman sufficient respect and he paid the ultimate penalty.

That said - he, dusted himself off and did what all great champions do and avenged his mistakes (vs Rahman in sensational style). Moreover, against a younger, fitter and bigger Viitali he summoned every last shred of guts, experience and energy to carve his face up like a butcher.

Unlike many I rank guts - getting back up off the floor to not just conquer your opponent but - more importantly - conquer yourself a whole lot higher than media hype (Tyson being an obvious example). How anyone can rate a guy who (now admittedly) completely collapses when bullied ahead of Lewis who achieved the antithesis of such is inexplicable.

Thankfully, and unlike many other unfortunate heavies, he knew when to quit.

Regardless of whether you appreciated Lennox's style or not - I think it's fair to suggest the division is much the poorer without him (or someone like him).

In summation - I'd say Lewis deserves to be recognised among the top 10 or so heavies of all time. If that doesn't make you ATG I don't know what does. Sure, I'm open to reasoned arguments moving him one or two positions forward or backward. But to not recognise him at all seems a bit mental and/or an exercise in axe-grinding.

[Joeyzagz]

Lennox is a solid #3 all time. I can only rank Joe Louis and Ali above him.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I've always thought Lewis was overrated

Got KOd by 2 scrubs. No career defining win unless you count a cut win over vital where some people believe he was losing. Other then that piggy backing wins off shot Tyson and holyfield.

All wrong....

Wins?. How about

Ruddock when razor was top contender
Bruno for world title
Golata when Golata was prime
Morrison
Mercer
Tua
Grant
Briggs

All these guys were damn near peak prime and Lewis destroyed most.. The desctruction of Golata, ruddock, and grant stick out most for me as all three were considered legit contenders and potential champs.. Lennox iced them all quick and brutally

[BKM-2010]

It would be rediclous to not have Lewis in the top 10. Personally I have Lewis at #3 for a variety of reasons.