'Lennox Lewis is not an ATG' IronDanHamza

[Nagabilly]

Noob here.

Why is it harder for a HW to be in P4P ATG list than fighters from other weight classes? Genuine question, not trying to troll or anything.

[NChristo]

Noob here.

Why is it harder for a HW to be in P4P ATG list than fighters from other weight classes? Genuine question, not trying to troll or anything.

They can't move up in weight is probably the main reason, can't face the best boxers from other divisions. I would prefer too just not involve Heavies in a p4p list if I was too make one, the no weight limit just makes things that much harder as well.

[New England]

I'll just copy the post from the other thread;

It's hard to say. They're perhaps more than 100 ATG's now. Depending on how you define great.

I don't have a Top 100 list. I have an off the top gauge of where I would rank a certain fighter. And I don't think Lewis would be in the Top 100, I don't know for sure, but, I'd doubt it.

I know for absolute certain that I could name 50 fighters above him and I don't think I'd be hard pressed thinking of another 50.

But can I say for certain without any question, 100 fighters head and shoulders, indisputably above Lewis? No. Because I don't have a list and I'm going off nothing more than off the top of my head which at my age is becoming less and less reliable.

But like I said, from what I gather I would doubt it.

If this makes me biased then so be it. But, I'm really not biased toward Lennox Lewis in any way what so ever.

I barely ever post about him, truth be told. For the whole 3 or so years I've been a member on here I've barely ever posted about him. The only reason I have posted about him recently is because someone said he has the best resume of the last 25 years and when someone see's something as outrageous as that, it's hard to just ignore.

Well, I don't have a Top 100 list so I can't name 100, for certain. But I'd imagine if I really tried, I could.

So, considering that, I wouldn't consider him an ATG. That said, I wouldn't deny that it's atleast up for debate.

Anyway, here's 50 off the top of my head;

Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Ezzard Charles
Henry Armstrong
Archie Moore
Carlos Monzon
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Willie Pep
Whitaker
Joe Gans
B.Leonard
R.Leoanrd
Alexis Arguello
Bob Fitzsimmons
Emile Griffith
Mickey Walker
Eder Jofre
Jose Napoles
Gene Tunney
Jimmy Mclarnin
Roberto Duran
Barney Ross
Joe Walcott
Tommy Hearns
Marvin Hagler
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
Kid Gavilan
Sandy Saddler
Billy Conn
Carlos Oritz
Terry McGovern
Ted Kid Lewis
Jack Britton
Julio Cesar Chavez
Roy Jones
Maxie Rosenbloom
Harold Johnson
Manuel Ortiz
**** Tiger
Fighting Harada
Ruben Olivares
Jake Lamotta
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquaio
Bernard Hopkins
Evander Holyfield

I think that's 50 or 51.

That's without naming;

James Toney
Mike McCallum
Tito Trinidad
Oscar De La Hoya
Juan Manuel Marquez
Tiger Flowers
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Tony Canzoneri
Ike Williams
Bob Foster
Wilfred Benitez
Salvador Sanchez
Azumah Nelson

That's another 16 I'd rank ahead of him so that's 67.

And that's off the top of my head with very little thought. I'd imagine I could think of another 33. But that said, I won't deny it could be arguable.

is that top 50 in order?

[Nagabilly]

They can't move up in weight is probably the main reason, can't face the best boxers from other divisions. I would prefer too just not involve Heavies in a p4p list if I was too make one, the no weight limit just makes things that much harder as well.

But there a lot of fighters who stayed in 1 division yet you still see them frequently in ATG list. For example: Hagler, Pep, Lamotta

[D-MiZe]

But there a lot of fighters who stayed in 1 division yet you still see them frequently in ATG list. For example: Hagler, Pep, Lamotta

Look who they beat though.

Think about what divisions are around middleweight, welterweight etc and what is around heavyweight - which is only cruiserweight. Which is not a very rich division for talent at all.

So the chances of a heavyweight fighting 3 other ATGs is kind of slim.

[Bolo Punch]

Going to run with the last couple of posts and go off thread topic here...

Jake LaMotta is often mentioned in people's lists of their all-time greats. His record of 83-19 (30 KOs) isn't particularly impressive. IMO, it's made even less impressive when you look at his big wins...

- Sugar Ray Robinson (who beat him 5 times)
- Fritzie Zivic x3 (fair enough, good wins)
- Holmann Williams (another good win)
- Marcel Cerdan (Cerdan had a dislocated shoulder from the first round)

I don't even think the Cerdan win was credible either, due to Jake overdoing it with the roughhouse tactics in the opening round.

For someone that fought in such a way as LaMotta did, his KO% is also surprisingly low.

Another thing is that only held the World title once, and I think that was only for a couple of years.

This makes me genuinely wonder if he's as good as people say. Is he in these lists because of the Sugar Ray win alone? A fighter is allowed an off-night and Robinson proved that to be true by beating LaMotta over and over again to certify that is exactly what he had in their second fight.

I'd be interesting to hear others' opinions on this.

[IronDanHamza]

is that top 50 in order?

Of course not

Just a completely random list of the first fighters that came to my head.

[IronDanHamza]

Going to run with the last couple of posts and go off thread topic here...

Jake LaMotta is often mentioned in people's lists of their all-time greats. His record of 83-19 (30 KOs) isn't particularly impressive. IMO, it's made even less impressive when you look at his big wins...

- Sugar Ray Robinson (who beat him 5 times)
- Fritzie Zivic x3 (fair enough, good wins)
- Holmann Williams (another good win)
- Marcel Cerdan (Cerdan had a dislocated shoulder from the first round)

I don't even think the Cerdan win was credible either, due to Jake overdoing it with the roughhouse tactics in the opening round.

For someone that fought in such a way as LaMotta did, his KO% is also surprisingly low.

Another thing is that only held the World title once, and I think that was only for a couple of years.

This makes me genuinely wonder if he's as good as people say. Is he in these lists because of the Sugar Ray win alone? A fighter is allowed an off-night and Robinson proved that to be true by beating LaMotta over and over again to certify that is exactly what he had in their second fight.

I'd be interesting to hear others' opinions on this.

What about Yarosz, Janiro, Satterfield, Dautuille, Mitri? They're all wins against top contenders in the MW Division at the time.

That's a solid run on it's own.

That's without, Ray Robinson who's arguably greatest MW ever, Holman Williams who's an ATG, Marcel Cerdan who's an arguable Top 10 MW of all time, Fritzie Zivic.

For me, it's difficult to say that's not an impressive record.

You touched on Lamotta losing to Robinson 5 out of 6 times, he had an "off night". I see that a lot. That's one way of looking at it, from the outside in, at a stat.

Let's look at it another way, why do you think they had 6 fights. And why did it stop at 6?

Here's why, because every single fight Ray Robinson and Jake Lamotta had other than the last one, was a competitive, close fight that could have gone either way, including the one Jake won. That's why they kept rematching despite Robinson kept winning. Because they were all very close fights.

Much like the Johnson-Moore saga. Very similar, infact.

Robinson didn't have an "off night" in the first fight, he simply lost a close decision as opposed to winning a close decision like the others.

[Bolo Punch]

What about Yarosz, Janiro, Satterfield, Dautuille, Mitri? They're all wins against top contenders in the MW Division at the time.

That's a solid run on it's own.

That's without, Ray Robinson who's arguably greatest MW ever, Holman Williams who's an ATG, Marcel Cerdan who's an arguable Top 10 MW of all time, Fritzie Zivic.

To be fair, I did give LaMotta credit for the Robinson, Williams and Zivic wins.

As I said, Cerdan was a one-armed fighter from the second round on. I actually think Cerdan could've beaten LaMotta if that hadn't have happened.

As for the other wins you just mentioned, LaMotta was about 15 seconds away from losing to Dauthuille for a second time. Yeah, you gotta give him props for pulling it out of the bag, but you'd expect an ATG to beat a fringe contender like Dauthuille. Same goes for Yarosz and Satterfield wins - nothing more than you would've expected.

Gotta give him props for beating Janiro and Mitri though. Very solid wins.

You touched on Lamotta losing to Robinson 5 out of 6 times, he had an "off night". I see that a lot. That's one way of looking at it, from the outside in, at a stat.

Let's look at it another way, why do you think they had 6 fights. And why did it stop at 6?

Here's why, because every single fight Ray Robinson and Jake Lamotta had other than the last one, was a competitive, close fight that could have gone either way, including the one Jake won. That's why they kept rematching despite Robinson kept winning. Because they were all very close fights.

Much like the Johnson-Moore saga. Very similar, infact.

Robinson didn't have an "off night" in the first fight, he simply lost a close decision as opposed to winning a close decision like the others.

I suppose that does make sense, but the way I see it is like this - if they had've been that closely matched LaMotta would've won at least one more of the fights. He only managed to take one to a split decision. Of course, it's hard for me to judge, as the last fight was the only one ever captured on film, so it's hard for anyone to really say or give a proper opinion on the series unless they attended all the fights.

By the way, I hope you don't think I'm rubbishing LaMotta's career/record and saying that he wasn't a good fighter. Not at all. I've never said that he's definitely not an ATG either. I just don't think he's as good as he's made out to be.

[HaglerSteelChin]

I personally do have Lennox Lewis at the bottom of my top 100, somewhere between 88-95. However, i don't think anyone is off their rocker not having him on their top 100. This is a sport that has over a century of title boxing. If you add the bare knuckle era than we are talking over two centuries of possible guys on the list.

It also depends where you rank Lewis as a HW? Some people have him top 10, and others around top 20.

A guy like Bert Sugar often has many old school fighers since he is biased toward the era. He would throw Wolgost, McFarland, and perhaps someone like Mysterious Billy Smith before someone like Lewis. The whole thing is very subjective.