'Lennox Lewis is not an ATG' IronDanHamza

[StarshipTrooper]

I claim to know enough about boxing to safety say with a rocket launcher to my head.. Lennox Lewis is a certified top 100 ATG (ALL DIVISIONS)


The truth of the matter is.. it don't matter if it's ESB Classics(a place that ranks and loves Lewis a lot more than the Scene) or if it's this website.. the vast majority of you have not even see 100 Certified ATG'S fight enough times to make a judgement. Hence it is impossible for the vast majority of you to say Lewis is not a top 100 fighter. It's just unrealistic.

You can't just boxrec and read up on stats+names and nod to yourself and say 'Yep I rank him above him' .. boxing history don't work like that. You shouldn't even be able to rank anyone (outside of cases like Greb) that you haven't' seen fight at least 5+ times on film. It's just unrealistic and highly absurd to rank based on stats and boxrec.. over film footage.

I refuse to believe that there are 100 fighters caught on film greater than Lennox Lewis... and more to the point I refuse to believe anyone on this site or ESB or any website in general have seen 100+ Fighters greater than Lewis at least 5+ times each in action.


It's absurd and highly unrealistic. Absurdity.

^^^^^ Alt. Only a question of whom at this point.....

Poet

[WizardKO]

Oh please put me on ignore you butthurt jocksniffing Lewis fanboy.

This is the history section. Please refrain from insults. Also judging by that insult it will seem like you are way past your prime years as a man(definitely as a woman)

I'll make sure to enjoy college life even more so I don't regret anything when I'm 20 years past my due date and is only able to communicate via online forums on topics I think I know but actually know very little about.

[Weltschmerz]

So if we say p4p doesn't really include HWs, there's no case for starters talking about Lewis in ATG context. But he's surely a HW ATG. Is there any reason to take it further?

[StarshipTrooper]

This is the history section. Please refrain from insults. Also judging by that insult it will seem like you are way past your prime years as a man(definitely as a woman)

I'll make sure to enjoy college life even more so I don't regret anything when I'm 20 years past my due date and is only able to communicate via online forums on topics I think I know but actually know very little about.

This is the History Section. Please refrain from trolling.

When you're 20 years past your due date you're still going to be asking "Do ya want fries wit dat?" for your weekly paycheck :loser9:

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

So if we say p4p doesn't really include HWs, there's no case for starters talking about Lewis in ATG context. But he's surely a HW ATG. Is there any reason to take it further?

A case can certainly be made that Lewis is an ATG Heavyweight. I understand arguments on both sides of this one though I lean towards counting him as an ATG. If someone has Lewis anywhere from 8 to 15 I'm not going to quibble over the exact placement.

Poet

[NChristo]

I claim to know enough about boxing to safety say with a rocket launcher to my head.. Lennox Lewis is a certified top 100 ATG (ALL DIVISIONS)


The truth of the matter is.. it don't matter if it's ESB Classics(a place that ranks and loves Lewis a lot more than the Scene) or if it's this website.. the vast majority of you have not even see 100 Certified ATG'S fight enough times to make a judgement. Hence it is impossible for the vast majority of you to say Lewis is not a top 100 fighter. It's just unrealistic.

You can't just boxrec and read up on stats+names and nod to yourself and say 'Yep I rank him above him' .. boxing history don't work like that. You shouldn't even be able to rank anyone (outside of cases like Greb) that you haven't' seen fight at least 5+ times on film. It's just unrealistic and highly absurd to rank based on stats and boxrec.. over film footage.

I refuse to believe that there are 100 fighters caught on film greater than Lennox Lewis... and more to the point I refuse to believe anyone on this site or ESB or any website in general have seen 100+ Fighters greater than Lewis at least 5+ times each in action.


It's absurd and highly unrealistic. Absurdity.

Here you go sunshine, a top 100 list by a highly known boxing historian, if it's so wrong and unrealistic why isn't Lennox on this list ?, to be fair this historian is also known for being full of **** 95% of the time, but he is / was a writer so he knows better then all of us including you.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross

21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern

31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns

51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale

71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez

86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

No Lennox.

[StarshipTrooper]

Here you go sunshine, a top 100 list by a highly known boxing historian, if it's so wrong and unrealistic why isn't Lennox on this list ?, to be fair this historian is also known for being full of **** 95% of the time, but he is / was a writer so he knows better then all of us including you.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross

21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern

31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns

51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale

71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez

86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

No Lennox.

I'm guessing this is Bert Sugar's list.

Poet

[Weltschmerz]

So break that list down for us, wizardko.

[WizardKO]

Here you go sunshine, a top 100 list by a highly known boxing historian, if it's so wrong and unrealistic why isn't Lennox on this list ?, to be fair this historian is also known for being full of **** 95% of the time, but he is / was a writer so he knows better then all of us including you.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross

21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern

31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns

51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale

71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez

86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

No Lennox.

This is all I wanted. Something the other two posters somehow couldn't provide.

Now let's take a look should we?

Mike Tyson alone... is debatable. I think at least 50% of boxing historians like Poet so love to call them will have Lewis ahead of Tyson.
Very debatable

Now let's go on .
Willie Ritchie? Have any of you even seen him fight?

Frankie Burns who had 22 losses himself dominated him.

Although not much footage is on hand for Ritchie. Here is a quote regarding the Burns fight.

"Lost and Bewildered the Young Ritchie looked in the face of superior opposition".

'Superior Opposition' 22 lost Burns.


Ritchie himself got I think 15-19 draws.. That alone speaks of heavy mob influence and corruption.

He also amassed double digit losses PRIOR to him leaving his prime years.

Now he could have made up for this if he had over 50+ wins. Sadly he did not. The guy had only 38 wins..

Now if you change all his draws to WINS.. we might have a case for a 'good resume' sadly after researching him.. most of the draws were actually IN FAVOR OF HIM.. So out of the 15+ draws he had.. HE ACTUALLY DESERVED to lose at least 10 of them. :OO

I'm sorry.. He is not ranked higher than Lewis.

[WizardKO]

Here you go sunshine, a top 100 list by a highly known boxing historian, if it's so wrong and unrealistic why isn't Lennox on this list ?, to be fair this historian is also known for being full of **** 95% of the time, but he is / was a writer so he knows better then all of us including you.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross

21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern

31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns

51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale

71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez

86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

No Lennox.

Ahh Lew Jenkins. Good ole Lew.

Now you see the person who made this list probably smiled to himself and added in the name Lew Jenkins without knowing much about his actual boxing abilities. More infatuated with his WW2 glories.


Lew Jenkins was considered one of the most dangerous 2nd tier fighters of his era. Was he an elite talent? Hell YES!!
Was he a very good boxer? HELL YES!

Did he beat a significant amount of higher ranked guys? HELL YES!!!!

But for every good fighter he vanquished.. 2 lesser fighters will get the best of him.

Was his neck really 'broken' as he claimed against Sammy Angott?
Was it? I doubt it. More like he drunk himself into another stupor.

For you see? Good Ole Lew was a drunk and a heavy alcoholic.

Did he have a monster monster right hand ? Yes he did.
But his utter lack of dedication and rather medicare boxing skills caused him to drop multiple fights to lesser opposition.

I will not emphasize on his record too much for fear of being called a boxrec warrior.

But here it is.

74-42.

Rather good baseball or basketball record. Not for boxing. Not even for that era where fighting occurs at a consistent basis.

You can't really say he was shot until after maybe Montgomery.

His glory moments came from getting stopped by Armstrong. Ironically tko6.
His peak was probably against Billy Marquart.

Once again. A dangerous little fighter. A 2nd tier massive puncher.

NOT GREATER THAN LEWIS.