Rocky Marciano is very overrated IMO

[Bundana]

The usa would have also had a flux of immigration that could have further swelled its ranks. Because you are all about numbers, I am curious if the local boxing population within usa at the time.

We know, that the worldwide number of active fighters that can be found in BoxRec's computer, reached an all-time high in 1930 with 30,006 - from where it dropped to 9,227 in 1942.

The number of worldwide fights also reached a high in 1930, with 49,612 - dropping to 16,445 in 1942.

I don't know of a way to find the yearly number of active boxers for individual countries... but it's actually possible to find the number of promotions for specific years. For the US this number reached an all-time high in, yes you guessed it, 1930... where 7,638 pro events took place, according to BoxRec. in 1942 the number had dropped to 1,886.

[Willie Pep 229]

The usa wasnt actively involved in ww2 for its entirety. Just a few years of real man power was used, many returned before the war was even over. Man power was used up (to a certain degree) but at the same time many of these soldiers were already back in the usa and in the fight ranks while ww2 was still on going.

i think you make a very good point concerning the rest of europe, the usa may have benefitted from it though, since so many soldiers took up boxing in the army.

europe needed all its men and the casualties were much higher, infrastructure at risk - they would have had thinned ranks for sure.

so I guess overall I think you make a good point, likely from 1943-1945 is my guess where the USA may have felt it.

11 million served in a period of 2.5 years, 9 in 1000 were KIA and the population was 130-140 million at the time. How many were young men? Not sure. Some of the servicemen were women as well and not all front line infantry.

world war 2 started from 1939 - 1945 but the usa really only got seriously involved at the tail end of it.

The usa would have also had a flux of immigration that could have further swelled its ranks. Because you are all about numbers, I am curious if the local boxing population within usa at the time.

Good post, one small complaint.

1942 was not the tail end of WWII. Most consider Stalingrad the beginning of the end for Germany and that came in late February 1943.

The period between September 1939 and summer 1941 only saw the collpase of Poland (in weeks) and the defeat of France (in weeks), with six months of "Phony War" mixed in as well.

Followed by some limited fighting in Greece and Albania.

The real nightmare fighting doesn't begin until Barbarosa (sp) in mid July 1941. Within six months America is in the war and by May is in North Africa.

No doubt the Russians did the heavy lifting but it was far earlier than the 'tail end' when America became involved.

Louis was inducted as early as Januray '42 and in uniform by early spring. Louis, while being allowed to spar exhibitions, wouldn't fight competively between March 1942 (while in uniform) and June 1946. That's 50 months, or just over four years.*

The only big name fighter I know, who was drafted in '42 and then able to fight before 1946 was Graziano, and that's because he was dishonorablely discharged.

* I am ignoring the Johnny Davis fight.

[QueensburyRules]

Good post, one small complaint.

1942 was not the tail end of WWII. Most consider Stalingrad the beginning of the end for Germany and that came in late February 1943.

The period between September 1939 and summer 1941 only saw the collpase of Poland (in weeks) and the defeat of France (in weeks), with six months of "Phony War" mixed in as well.

Followed by some limited fighting in Greece and Albania.

The real nightmare fighting doesn't begin until Barbarosa (sp) in mid July 1941. Within six months America is in the war and by May is in North Africa.

No doubt the Russians did the heavy lifting but it was far earlier than the 'tail end' when America became involved.

Louis was inducted as early as Januray '42 and in uniform by early spring. Louis, while being allowed to spar exhibitions, wouldn't fight competively between March 1942 (while in uniform) and June 1946. That's 50 months, or just over four years.*

The only big name fighter I know, who was drafted in '42 and then able to fight before 1946 was Graziano, and that's because he was dishonorablely discharged.

* I am ignoring the Johnny Davis fight.

- - Pearl Harbor closed 1941, so 1942 was mostly spent conscripting youth, retooling industry, and reorganizing the Armed Forces for the developing War strategy that was fought on 2, La Dos fronts with McArthur's Pacific being vastly larger and much further away from supply lines, all with less man power, equipment, and budget.

Apples can be excused for being Eurocentric as most all the press were, but point in fact the Japanese war machine was more advanced and occupied much larger territories than Germany who lacked the military leadership of Japan.

Still, this notion that the US played a mop up role like they did in WW1 is ridiculous. Some of the hardest battles were fought in Europe while Mac had been cornered in Oz. WW2 could've very well have turned out with Allies victorious in Europe, but Americans losing the Pacific. Imagine what that historical reality would yield today!

And since Joe and Rocky fought later in 1951, while Rocky was peeling potatoes in penance for KOing Brits in Bar fights, the boost in morale Joe Louis gave to the troops was incalculable. He reputedly fought an exhibition at Cheesefoot Head, a very large natural amphitheatre in the Hampshire countryside just outside Winchester, England in front of tens of thousands of gathered Allied troops just days before the massive D-Day invasion of Normandy.

How many of our troops from there remain buried in France for the eternity?

[Ivich]

- - Pearl Harbor closed 1941, so 1942 was mostly spent conscripting youth, retooling industry, and reorganizing the Armed Forces for the developing War strategy that was fought on 2, La Dos fronts with McArthur's Pacific being vastly larger and much further away from supply lines, all with less man power, equipment, and budget.

Apples can be excused for being Eurocentric as most all the press were, but point in fact the Japanese war machine was more advanced and occupied much larger territories than Germany who lacked the military leadership of Japan.

Still, this notion that the US played a mop up role like they did in WW1 is ridiculous. Some of the hardest battles were fought in Europe while Mac had been cornered in Oz. WW2 could've very well have turned out with Allies victorious in Europe, but Americans losing the Pacific. Imagine what that historical reality would yield today!

And since Joe and Rocky fought later in 1951, while Rocky was peeling potatoes in penance for KOing Brits in Bar fights, the boost in morale Joe Louis gave to the troops was incalculable. He reputedly fought an exhibition at Cheesefoot Head, a very large natural amphitheatre in the Hampshire countryside just outside Winchester, England in front of tens of thousands of gathered Allied troops just days before the massive D-Day invasion of Normandy.

How many of our troops from there remain buried in France for the eternity?

Decent post but Marciano wasnt peeling potatoes for koing Brits in bar fights,he was in the stockade and court martialled for mugging a gay civilian robbing him and being absent without leave.Marciano was in the Pioneer Corps and scheduled to go to France for the invasion,but he spent that time in jail and never reached France,subsequently being imprisoned when he was back in the States and later dishonourably discharged which was reversed when he re- enlisted. Rocky's one bar fight was with an Australian.

There is no doubt that without America's entry into the war the Axis would have won the war.
America got the rough end of the pine -apple at D Day ,meeting much stronger resistance and sustaining more casualties than did us Brits.

Louis refused to give exhibitions to segregated audiences in Europe.He was some champion ,and some man!

[them_apples]

Good post, one small complaint.

1942 was not the tail end of WWII. Most consider Stalingrad the beginning of the end for Germany and that came in late February 1943.

The period between September 1939 and summer 1941 only saw the collpase of Poland (in weeks) and the defeat of France (in weeks), with six months of "Phony War" mixed in as well.

Followed by some limited fighting in Greece and Albania.

The real nightmare fighting doesn't begin until Barbarosa (sp) in mid July 1941. Within six months America is in the war and by May is in North Africa.

No doubt the Russians did the heavy lifting but it was far earlier than the 'tail end' when America became involved.

Louis was inducted as early as Januray '42 and in uniform by early spring. Louis, while being allowed to spar exhibitions, wouldn't fight competively between March 1942 (while in uniform) and June 1946. That's 50 months, or just over four years.*

The only big name fighter I know, who was drafted in '42 and then able to fight before 1946 was Graziano, and that's because he was dishonorablely discharged.

* I am ignoring the Johnny Davis fight.

yeah I agree, my bad on that part

By the way, the 43-45 figure was based on the armies conscription numbers. thats when the USA started increasing its army size to fight over seas. This would have been when the population felt it, in boxing.

[them_apples]

- - Pearl Harbor closed 1941, so 1942 was mostly spent conscripting youth, retooling industry, and reorganizing the Armed Forces for the developing War strategy that was fought on 2, La Dos fronts with McArthur's Pacific being vastly larger and much further away from supply lines, all with less man power, equipment, and budget.

Apples can be excused for being Eurocentric as most all the press were, but point in fact the Japanese war machine was more advanced and occupied much larger territories than Germany who lacked the military leadership of Japan.

Still, this notion that the US played a mop up role like they did in WW1 is ridiculous. Some of the hardest battles were fought in Europe while Mac had been cornered in Oz. WW2 could've very well have turned out with Allies victorious in Europe, but Americans losing the Pacific. Imagine what that historical reality would yield today!

And since Joe and Rocky fought later in 1951, while Rocky was peeling potatoes in penance for KOing Brits in Bar fights, the boost in morale Joe Louis gave to the troops was incalculable. He reputedly fought an exhibition at Cheesefoot Head, a very large natural amphitheatre in the Hampshire countryside just outside Winchester, England in front of tens of thousands of gathered Allied troops just days before the massive D-Day invasion of Normandy.

How many of our troops from there remain buried in France for the eternity?

see above post, as to why I mentioned 1943-45

[them_apples]

But the world rankings aren't important in determining the greatness of the era, its the quality and quantity of great fighters that matter. When it comes to that the 1940's take a back seat to no decade.

they are important, Bundanas number crunchings are good points, just points among many. they don't paint the entire picture.

[them_apples]

Decent post but Marciano wasnt peeling potatoes for koing Brits in bar fights,he was in the stockade and court martialled for mugging a gay civilian robbing him and being absent without leave.Marciano was in the Pioneer Corps and scheduled to go to France for the invasion,but he spent that time in jail and never reached France,subsequently being imprisoned when he was back in the States and later dishonourably discharged which was reversed when he re- enlisted. Rocky's one bar fight was with an Australian.

There is no doubt that without America's entry into the war the Axis would have won the war.
America got the rough end of the pine -apple at D Day ,meeting much stronger resistance and sustaining more casualties than did us Brits.

Louis refused to give exhibitions to segregated audiences in Europe.He was some champion ,and some man!

this isn't true at all. In fact even japan capitulating had a lot to do with Russia.

The British had a better standing army than the US. so did Germany, once USA ramped up production they started doing better and gaining experience. when America hit european soil they were battle ******* in comparison to British/German troops. This is common sense and is also how things played out.

The US did come along at the right time and also had an incredible resource pool to draw from, much like Russia and even better because they are unassailable in a land attack and able to build a massive navy like Britain could being a smaller Island.

If America didn't come along Russia would have ruled europe, is the real reason. Russia was allies but only last minute, they were real close to being Allies with German, and sort of were at one point. the battle logistics show Russia half stepping even as the war was already turning, almost deciding who to take sides with.

[Willie Pep 229]

this isn't true at all. In fact even japan capitulating had a lot to do with Russia.

The British had a better standing army than the US. so did Germany, once USA ramped up production they started doing better and gaining experience. when America hit european soil they were battle ******* in comparison to British/German troops. This is common sense and is also how things played out.

The US did come along at the right time and also had an incredible resource pool to draw from, much like Russia and even better because they are unassailable in a land attack and able to build a massive navy like Britain could being a smaller Island.

If America didn't come along Russia would have ruled europe, is the real reason. Russia was allies but only last minute, they were real close to being Allies with German, and sort of were at one point. the battle logistics show Russia half stepping even as the war was already turning, almost deciding who to take sides with.

Agree with almost all of it especially the last paragraph.

There is a WWII cliché on how we won the war --> British inellengence, American steel, and Russian blood.

So I agree with your assement, but there is one remark that is IMO hyperbole.

I don't agree with the term "******." Many of the troops that hit the beaches at Normandy had battle experience in North Africa, Sicily, and Southern Italy.

In the film Saving Private Ryan, at the end of the opening scence we see one of the sargents fill up an emply film can with dirt from the beach. He places it into his backpack with other cans labeled North Africa and Italy (or something to that effect.) Spielberg was telling us this was this guy's third damn invasion. He was no combat ******.

P.S. I want to add regarding your last paragraph. At the end an American general commented to Stalin: "Well you made it to Berlin." -- Stalin replied: "Peter the Great made it to Paris.

Certainly any territory Russia "liberated" they were going to keep and that meant all of Western Europe if we hadn't started driving eastward from Normandy in 1944.

[QueensburyRules]

Decent post but Marciano wasnt peeling potatoes for koing Brits in bar fights,he was in the stockade and court martialled for mugging a gay civilian robbing him and being absent without leave.Marciano was in the Pioneer Corps and scheduled to go to France for the invasion,but he spent that time in jail and never reached France,subsequently being imprisoned when he was back in the States and later dishonourably discharged which was reversed when he re- enlisted. Rocky's one bar fight was with an Australian.

There is no doubt that without America's entry into the war the Axis would have won the war.
America got the rough end of the pine -apple at D Day ,meeting much stronger resistance and sustaining more casualties than did us Brits.

Louis refused to give exhibitions to segregated audiences in Europe.He was some champion ,and some man!

- - Would disagree with all of that.