Rocky Marciano VS Mike Tyson.

[titoi]

@titoi:

nothing is absolutely certain, especially when it comes to boxing.

I agree 100% and I hoped the irony of my comments would come through in the "11 times out of 10" bit, but I guess not.

The comments many have made seem to me accurate - Mike might have won in the first few rounds by KO due to his size and strength advantage, but if it went longer then Marciano's stamina and character would have won the day. I tend to think it would have been the latter, but as you point out... who knows?

In any case, arguing about historical boxers is entertaining to a point, but there's certainly no reason to get heated (or **** on my karma!) over it... ;^>

[titoi]

Marciano is "monstrously mentally tough by historical standards", how so?

I think being a not particularly physically special 180 pound guy who beat the hell out of 200+ pound guys professionally and retired undefeated needs to be explained somehow. To me, the explanation is mental. He wanted it so bad that he trained like a freak. He wanted it so bad, that guys who should have removed his head couldn't hurt him enough to take him off his game. I never saw him fight live, but people who did say he was a freak. The guy was just monstrously tough.

Ali, now there was someone that was tested.

Agree 100%. I also tend to think that Ali would have beaten Marciano at least 2 out of 3 times. I tend to think Foreman would have killed him. But these were guys with ridiculous physical gifts *and* heart. (Frazier? I really don't know but would kill a family of six to see that fight! ;^>)

Tyson had remarkable gifts but a flawed heart. He also doesn't stylistically matchup so well as Foreman or Ali, imo.

Marciano is an INCOMPLETE. Tyson is in the same boat.

I agree that Marciano wasn't tested like Ali. But to say Tyson and Marciano are in the same boat is missing something important and that is the heart of a champion. Marciano had it but Tyson did not.

[Benny Leonard]

=titoi;2169929]I think being a not particularly physically special 180 pound guy who beat the hell out of 200+ pound guys professionally and retired undefeated needs to be explained somehow. To me, the explanation is mental. He wanted it so bad that he trained like a freak. He wanted it so bad, that guys who should have removed his head couldn't hurt him enough to take him off his game. I never saw him fight live, but people who did say he was a freak. The guy was just monstrously tough.

How many 200+ guys did he fight? How many were actually good? The big name fighters were all under 200 pounds. Tyson destroyed one of the best Light Heavyweights in History, Michael Spinks. Spinks was a big boy at LH, more of a cruiserweight that fought at LH. Spinks suffered his first knock-down, and first KNOCKOUT by Tyson. Did I mention Spinks was undefeated.

Agree 100%. I also tend to think that Ali would have beaten Marciano at least 2 out of 3 times. I tend to think Foreman would have killed him. But these were guys with ridiculous physical gifts *and* heart. (Frazier? I really don't know but would kill a family of six to see that fight! ;^>)

I agree with this. Foreman might not have all the skills, mostly because nobody developed him to his full potential (in my opinion), but that big S.O.B. had a huge heart.

Frazier and Marciano would be a good fight and the fight I would love to see over any other of the names were are talking about. That would be brutal.

Tyson had remarkable gifts but a flawed heart. He also doesn't stylistically matchup so well as Foreman or Ali, imo

.

I think "stylistically" Tyson would do fine. Marciano could be hurt early, and Tyson like hurting people early. In his prime, Tyson was a machine.

Tyson's heart was connected to motivation, being in top shape, and having an answer; his answer was his trainer, first Cus, then Rooney. He was young, didn't have a lot of fights, and questioned himself. He was still insecure, but the more he won, the more he gained confidence.

Heart is Confidence and Belief. Marciano grew up in an Italian family that encourages you, gives you confidence. Mike didn't have that until Cus. Cus had to rework him, build him up. It's a shame it was cut short.

Not to say Mike couldn't win without a trainer; didn't do bad by himself after winning the title and gaining some of that confidence from being a "Champion." He did beat Bruno, which I am not sure says a lot because Bruno caved in. Ruddock though, he wasn't scared at all of Mike and took it to him. Mike had just himself to rely on, and he won both fights. The Douglas lost seemed to help him out with maturing a bit. Of course, going to jail has to hurt this since in the words of Tyson, "Those who are in jail are people who can't handle their ****." Tyson mainted he was not guilty, which had to piss him off if he knew he was going to jail for something he didn't do, but did feel (according to ESPN SportsCentury) to a letter to Jim Grey, that he did many other things when he was younger that he didn't get caught for, so he felt he was in the right place.

I agree that Marciano wasn't tested like Ali. But to say Tyson and Marciano are in the same boat is missing something important and that is the heart of a champion. Marciano had it but Tyson did not.

"Heart of a Champion." Tyson didn't have this? Taking a beating from a 6'4 230 pound man (Buster Douglas), fighting for the memory of his late-mother, while not being in shape, partying and ****ing Japanese ***** the night before, is not heart?
He took a massive ass whoopin in that fight. Despite losing every single round through 7+ rounds, Tyson did not give up. No, he still was trying to throw one shot bombs to KO Douglas. Guess what, he knocked Douglas down in the 8th. Of course Douglas got up and proceeded the following round to tag Tyson's ass again, but Tyson still fought back. He was stunned, against the ropes, and he was throwing UPPERCUTS to try to knock Douglas down again. Now, why would a "Quitter", someone with "No Heart", fight back and still think he could win this fight? I have the answer, BEACAUSE HE THOUGHT HE COULD WIN, AND HE HAD THE HEART OF A CHAMPION TO GO OUT ON HIS SHIELD, which he did. He also got up on 9 on shaky legs and in LaLa land. Why would your instincts tell you to get up after taking that type of ass whoopin, after that HUGE combination?
BECAUSE HE HAS THE HEART OF A CHAMPION.

Oh, he would also take some tremendous shouts, be stunned by Ruddock, and still fight on. He would take a few more ass whoopins before his career was over. Remember the first fight with Holyfield? He was out on his feet, hung on, went to the corner. He came out the following round swinging, got caught on the ear, stunned, and the fight was stopped by TKO.

Lewis, ****, that was brutal. Shot, overweight, and had to face someone that needed you to stamp his legacy. A 6'5, 250 pound man who punches hard as hell. Tyson was finished after round 1, but took his beating like a man to give the Fans their ending.

[Brockton Lip]

The bashing of Marciano is wrong. He fought blind against an all time great; a champion on his best night, only to come back and score arguably the greatest knockout ever seen. He had his nose split in half by what appeared to be an elbow, but scored a knockout before the referee stopped the fight. He was knocked down and almost got up immediately against opponents, despite waiting like his trainer suggested.
He never knew fear in the ring, and Tyson would not be the first to scare him.

[Southpaw Stinger]

The bashing of Marciano is wrong. He fought blind against an all time great; a champion on his best night, only to come back and score arguably the greatest knockout ever seen. He had his nose split in half by what appeared to be an elbow, but scored a knockout before the referee stopped the fight. He was knocked down and almost got up immediately against opponents, despite waiting like his trainer suggested.
He never knew fear in the ring, and Tyson would not be the first to scare him.

Nobody's questioning Marciano's heart here. Heart will make you fight on but it's not much good if your KO'd.

[Benny Leonard]

The bashing of Marciano is wrong. He fought blind against an all time great; a champion on his best night, only to come back and score arguably the greatest knockout ever seen. He had his nose split in half by what appeared to be an elbow, but scored a knockout before the referee stopped the fight. He was knocked down and almost got up immediately against opponents, despite waiting like his trainer suggested.
He never knew fear in the ring, and Tyson would not be the first to scare him.

Like I said in a prior post, seeing opponents that are past their prime, and have been knocked out many times before, can boost your confidence. Marciano wasn't tested to the fullest of tests. Ali, like I said, was tested to the best.

And yes, the same goes for Tyson.

Would a Tiger scare Marciano? Even if it didn't, which I am assuming it will, he would be lunch.

[titoi]

Would a Tiger scare Marciano? Even if it didn't, which I am assuming it will, he would be lunch.

!!!

I don't agree with all of your conclusions, but some of your points are real good and this one is hilarious!

[Kid Achilles]

Tyson isn't a tiger. Tigers don't get beaten by guys of Buter Douglas's ability level. All Tyson needed was to land one good shot on Buster's frail chin and he would have gotten himself out of that fight. Dempsey, Marciano, Louis etc. would have all found a way to win that fight but Tyson basically quit halfway through. He kept fighting, took his beating like a man, but not with the intentions to win.

I'm sorry but Tyson never had half the heart Marciano did, not at any point in his career. The Buster Douglas moments, when you're not in the best shape and fighting a courageous opponent, are when you need to pull together and show everyone how you can cope with adversity. Tyson failed that one bigtime, just as he's failed every test since then.

Tyson had heart in his prime? Nah, he just never had it tested because he was head and shoulders above the competition. First time he was seriously tested and was taking a sustained beating, he folded. He did the same on each occasion afterwords.

I'd give Marciano at least a 50% shot with Tyson, if he can land a good flush punch before he's stopped. Marciano was a fighter with the heart and soul of a warrior whileas Tyson inside was always the kid hiding in rundown buildings to hide from the bullies.

One was a man through and through while the other was a frightened child who never grew up.

[Benny Leonard]

Tyson isn't a tiger. Tigers don't get beaten by guys of Buter Douglas's ability level. All Tyson needed was to land one good shot on Buster's frail chin and he would have gotten himself out of that fight. Dempsey, Marciano, Louis etc. would have all found a way to win that fight but Tyson basically quit halfway through. He kept fighting, took his beating like a man, but not with the intentions to win.

I'm sorry but Tyson never had half the heart Marciano did, not at any point in his career. The Buster Douglas moments, when you're not in the best shape and fighting a courageous opponent, are when you need to pull together and show everyone how you can cope with adversity. Tyson failed that one bigtime, just as he's failed every test since then.

Tyson had heart in his prime? Nah, he just never had it tested because he was head and shoulders above the competition. First time he was seriously tested and was taking a sustained beating, he folded. He did the same on each occasion afterwords.

I'd give Marciano at least a 50% shot with Tyson, if he can land a good flush punch before he's stopped. Marciano was a fighter with the heart and soul of a warrior whileas Tyson inside was always the kid hiding in rundown buildings to hide from the bullies.

One was a man through and through while the other was a frightened child who never grew up.

Let me guess, you are a big fan of Teddy "I held a gun up to a teenager" Atlas'"?

Tyson didn't "Quit" that fight. Nobody continues to take punishment that "Quits." Duran ****ing QUIT.
Sonny Liston on his stool against Ali, QUIT.

Tyson was still swinging away. He was still throwing that uppercut. Was he not?

MARCIANO WAS NEVER ****ING TESTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT. HE FOUGHT PAST THEIR PRIME FIGHTERS THAT WERE OLD AND SUFFERED CONCUSSIONS MANY TIMES OVER.

Tyson would of beaten every fighter Marciano did.

I am not saying Marciano didn't have heart, he did. Anybody who steps into the ring, especially on the elite level, has heart. It takes balls to fight when you really don't have to. That is heart.

What I question is this, Marciano never had to get his heart tested by fighting fighters that could test it. Given, he didn't have the opportunity, but how much can we assume on this?

Marciano was a young, strong, motivated fighter, while the rest, not so much.

You have to be Mentally and Physically fit to win.

MARCIANO WAS NO ANGEL EITHER.

[Hydro]

tyson's mental problems, in his losses to douglas and holyfield (first fight), wasn't a matter of guts or "folding".

It was more of a frustration thing, poor adjustment skills, impatience, not being able to stick to the game plan.