Rocky Marciano VS Mike Tyson.

[Yogi]

Say what you want about Walcott & Charles' skill and/or career stage (or Marciano's skill level for that matter), but to say that neither of them "tested Marciano" in their respective first meetings would be quite inaccurate based on the available footage of each of those fights.

[Benny Leonard]

tyson's mental problems, in his losses to douglas and holyfield (first fight), wasn't a matter of guts or "folding".

It was more of a frustration thing, poor adjustment skills, impatience, not being able to stick to the game plan.

His game-plan was to look at Douglas and hope he would fold.

His mis-judgement was thinking he didn't need Rooney anymore, going with King, and letting his life go out of control.

If he was unmotivated to fight anymore because he accomplished what he promised his Mentor, he should of found away to retire. But, what else was he supposed to do. He wasn't trained to do anything else, besides rob people. He had no family, nobody to trust, his education was halted, he wasn't mentally matured at that point, HE WAS ****ED.

Tyson needed certain people to stay alive, but Life doesn't work like that.

Based on two other students of Cus, Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres, if Cus was younger, had more time with Mike, Mike would of been just fine.

That's a hell of a life to live at 20.

[BKM-]

I think we're judging on Heart too much. Sometimes it's just not enough. Look at Frazier vs Foreman, he had heart but it sure as heck wasn't enough to beat the man in front of him.

[Benny Leonard]

Say what you want about Walcott & Charles' skill and/or career stage (or Marciano's skill level for that matter), but to say that neither of them "tested Marciano" in their respective first meetings would be quite inaccurate based on the available footage of each of those fights.

Marciano may have been tested, but if he was tested to his fullest ability, which he may have, then it makes you wonder more on how he would of did with greater fighters.

Just imagine, you see Tyson and you are Marciano. A 5'11, 220 pound freak of nature. The fastest, most powerful, freak of nature you ever saw. Threw and moved like a middle-weight. Took orders like a machine. You hear that?
That's Rooney calling out code numbers, 2-4-5, 1-8-7, Finish him.

My point was this: In the back of Marciano's mind he had to have known that he always had a chance because Walcott, Moore, Charles, and Louis, were past their primes, and had been knocked out before.

Take the first Walcott fight for example:
Marciano was having a rough time with the Old Champ, but he kept hammering away because he knew the guy in front of him was past his best, had been knocked out before, and it can happen again.

I just wonder what he would of done if that was say someone like Foreman.

[Benny Leonard]

I think we're judging on Heart too much. Sometimes it's just not enough. Look at Frazier vs Foreman, he had heart but it sure as heck wasn't enough to beat the man in front of him.

Just like Gatti. Anybody going to question this guy's Heart?

[Kid Achilles]

Marciano had his heart tested plenty of times, particulary in the 2nd Ezzard Charles fight and the Walcott matchup. He showed us more heart against Walcott than Tyson did in his entire career.

It requires much more heart and strength of character to come back from a beating and win than it does to simply stay upright and take a beating.

[Kid Achilles]

You can speculate away until we're on another subject but the fact is, Tyson failed his tests whereas the other great champions passed theirs. Call it heart, self confidence, motivation, whatever, but the fact of the matter is he lost a lot of his fire on each occasion when he was matched with an opponent who could hit him with regularity and avoid his punches. Marciano when in that position against Walcott kept firing back with intensity, with a fire in his belly. Tyson comes out in the later rounds in fights where he's taking a beating looking to me like a guy looking for a soft spot on the canvas to lay down but at the same time not wanting to damage his reputation as a tough guy. For a guy who had an iron chin, he lost exlusively by KO, TKO or DQ only (and was on his way to being disqualified by Botha when he was having a tough time with him) and by the end of those fights had the fighting spirit of a lamb.

Way I look at it, in this losses his heart says "quit" while his mind says "not an option, what will they think of me?"

Whereas with Marciano, heart and mind do not knowing the meaning of quit. Just an iron wall of perseverance.

That's the difference to me. Tyson had to force himself to act brave and carry on, and it showed in his body language and decreased punch output. Marciano just looked like a guy who did not know how to quit.

All my opinion only, but that's all anyone here has to offer anyway.

[titoi]

I think we're judging on Heart too much. Sometimes it's just not enough. Look at Frazier vs Foreman, he had heart but it sure as heck wasn't enough to beat the man in front of him.

Maybe. Somebody else made the good point that there have surely been many mental midgets who ktfo mentally tough guys. So the physicality matters, but Marciano wasn't exactly a cupcake and he wasn't fighting in an era of fruitloops either.

And I agree about Foreman/Frazier and would expect Foreman to remove Marciano's head up to and possibly including several layers of his neck... ;^>

But Tyson never had anywhere near the one punch power of Foreman, so ...

[BKM-]

And I agree about Foreman/Frazier and would expect Foreman to remove Marciano's head up to and possibly including several layers of his neck... ;^>

But Tyson never had anywhere near the one punch power of Foreman, so ...

No, but Tyson was more dangerous than Foreman. Foreman is the most overrated puncher ever because of his power. He had a lot of power in both hands, but did not know how to pace himself, he just went for pure instinct and believe it or not, Marciano is hard to hit. People who disagree should watch more fights or shut up. Tyson could deliver up to 8 punches in a few seconds, and they were all powerfull and accurate. Something that the Big ugly Bear lacks.

As for Tyson vs Rocky. Their strength is about the same, as Marciano being strong for his size, and Tyson weak for his size. This would be a slugfest no doubt. And Tyson exceeds Marciano in every level except heart, and for being close in chin and endurance. Tyson was tested in his career, Marciano not as much. We know what Tyson could take, and dish out.

[Benny Leonard]

No, but Tyson was more dangerous than Foreman. Foreman is the most overrated puncher ever because of his power. He had a lot of power in both hands, but did not know how to pace himself, he just went for pure instinct and believe it or not, Marciano is hard to hit. People who disagree should watch more fights or shut up. Tyson could deliver up to 8 punches in a few seconds, and they were all powerfull and accurate. Something that the Big ugly Bear lacks.

As for Tyson vs Rocky. Their strength is about the same, as Marciano being strong for his size, and Tyson weak for his size. This would be a slugfest no doubt. And Tyson exceeds Marciano in every level except heart, and for being close in chin and endurance. Tyson was tested in his career, Marciano not as much. We know what Tyson could take, and dish out.

Mike Tyson is weak for his size?

"He was violent, depressed, mute; one of the most intractable of the "incorrigible" boys. When he broke loose it required several adult men to overpower him. One official recalls having seen him dragged away in handcuffs, to be locked in solitary confinement."
From a Joyce Carol Oates article.




Now I am going to have to rewatch some Marciano fights, but I am pretty sure I remember Walcott in their first fight being able to tie Marciano up throughout the first half of the fight. LaStarza didn't do so bad either in their first meeting.



One more thing: One thing I never want to do, but it always seems to come to this is to seem to bash a fighter. More than anything, it is the responses of others. But what the hell, without different view points, no arguments would take place, and that would be boring. It's like having fighters not actually go in fight eachother, so lets fight on.